Escher's Relativity is doable

[Calena]

I really thought, at the time, it would just be a helpful tip for making things feel more "polished". I didn't see it as "imposing will on players" anymore than trying to work around any other unfortunate glitches.

I don't see it the same way. Although I also would like it if 1st person worked better in the sub-worlds of Relativity, I'm also well aware that Relativity has already raised the bar substantially higher than what Cyan has set for us. As an age builder myself, I'm probably more educated than you about what is really going on in this age and some of what it has taken to get it there. You also haven't explored this new version. It might be better if you withhold judgement until you do. But keep in mind that there is no other game, either from Cyan or any of the large game publishers, that have scenes that can compare with Relativity. Building an age that allows players to walk around and see each other on all three planes simultaneously is no small feat! I wish I could say more, but you'll just have to wait till tach is ready to publish.

As far as "polish" is concerned, we've already had fan ages go above and beyond what Cyan did and I'd venture to suggest that Relativity is at the top of that list. I made a short visit to Cyan's server tonight and here's some of what I found (without even trying hard):

Um . . . Wrong Texture

When Making A Water Mesh, It Helps To Be Certain It Actually Reaches The Shore!

How NOT To UVMap The Textures

In Which World Is This Considered Good Lighting?

Texture Stretching . . . Never Pretty

These screenshots simply serve to make the point that if you're looking for garbage, you'll probably find it. Relativity already is a HIGHLY polished age. Maybe in time, tach and/or Sirius will find even more ways to overcome the shortcomings of the game engine. If that's the only flaw you can think of, the builders need to pat themselves on the back. They done good .

[Deledrius]

I'm really eager to try this new version of Relativity. Was meaning to say that, and completely forgot when I asked about what was wrong with the subworlds. Seriously, everyone who worked on this, it looks amazing. I already liked the technical aspects of the original, and I can't wait to explore it again.

When Making A Water Mesh, It Helps To Be Certain It Actually Reaches The Shore!

That one bugs me every single time I walk by there.

[Ehren]

As an age builder myself, I'm probably more educated than you about what is really going on in this age and some of what it has taken to get it there.

As far as "polish" is concerned, we've already had fan ages go above and beyond what Cyan did and I'd venture to suggest that Relativity is at the top of that list. I made a short visit to Cyan's server tonight and here's some of what I found (without even trying hard):

....

These screenshots simply serve to make the point that if you're looking for garbage, you'll probably find it.

Where did THAT come from?! Why do you want to call me less educated than you? That seems highly rude...

What you are saying to me seems out of place. Textures? I wasn't even talking about textures. (Also, I don't even see any flaws in any but one of those specific pictures of Cyan stuff you posted... and I know of spots where there are flaws! But out of those pictures only that water mesh picture seemed like a flaw to me.)

Why are you comparing fan made ages to Cyan ages? I didn't say anything about how I thought Relativity stacks up in comparison to Cyan ages when I was talking about the idea of adding a forced camera. You seemed to act like I said I thought Cyan were perfect or something? But I wasn't trying to compare with them at all...

I think that both fan ages and Cyan ages have had their own strong and weak points against each other. Nothing/nobody is perfect.

I DO like Relativity, from the pictures posted awhile back this new version is looking very impressive. My comment was supposed to be a suggestion for dealing with a rather unideal situation with the rotated sub-worlds, I was NOT saying that I would dislike the age if he didn't use my suggestion. I said that I thought it might feel "more polished" but I didn't mean that I thought it is an unpolished or unattractive age.

In retrospect I'm not even crazy about my "stuck in 3rd person" idea anymore, but I'd like to think it was still worth bringing up, still worth at least some consideration.

[Karkadann]

Sounds like nothing more then a misunderstanding.

On the lighter side, im kinda wondering what the final product will look like,. its come a long way from the original sketch and believe me Adding a third dimension to M.C. Eschers Relativity was not easy. luckily I was using AutoCad at the time, the precision involved in that program made it a lot easer for me, although I did start from scratch twice, some of my attempts are posted in my photobucket
http://s306.photobucket.com/user/Dances ... t=3&page=1
http://s306.photobucket.com/user/Dances ... t=3&page=1
Then one day I woke up about 2 or 3 in the morning and realized If I can get the 3 main stairs correct the rest should fall into place. as I was working on the rest of it I also realized that everything had to be as close to the drawing as possible because everything seems to be relative to everything else in that if you changes something like the stairs angle or number or size you would have to change something else to accommodate the original change which would set off a chain reaction and by the time you get done it would look like something its not which is the main reason why I needed the intersection (what you see in the drawing) to stay as close to the original as possible. I wanted to maintain the integrity of the drawing as much as possible and have everything else in the age as something that is beyond what you see, and from what I have seen they have done a wonderful job, unfortunate I wont be able to work on it again until I learn Blender.

all in all it turned out far better then I expected and im glad I was able to contribute the original structure, all we hafta do now is figure out how to convert it to the new game engine if thats even possible

[tachzusamm]

I think too this can only be a misunderstanding.

And Karkadann, thank you for giving us an insight again how Relativity began to bud in the first place. While working on it and adding more geometry, I'm always thrilled how perfectly the core you built fits and aligns on every edge. I think AutoCAD is far better for such a job than Blender or Max. Intersection, rotation, entering exact dimensions, and such. It can be such a pain when you try to correlate parts together in a 3D software.
In my opinion, the whole trick of keeping those 3 dimension aligned and fitting is that it's all based on a minimum block size and its multiples, which is equal to the stair's step size. At least I still keep building everything there (walls and stairs) as multiples of 0.9 Blender units. Although in the first published version I re-build nearly everything from scratch (that was needed because the AutoCad -> Max -> Obj Format -> Blender import process resulted in face outlines horrible for unwrapping or texturing - and everything was a single mesh), but I always kept your gemometry as close as possible, just using your original mesh like a blueprint, which payed off.

all we hafta do now is figure out how to convert it to the new game engine if thats even possible

Maybe this could work using the tool "Transfusion" mentioned here:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6216#p64500

haven't tried yet though. Could be exciting to test if all the functionality survives the translation well.

[Sirius]

Has any thought been given to submitting this as a Fan addition to the MOULa server?? I know that Sevkor isn't yet ready for deployment as a Fan Age nexus, but Relativity would make an incredible first addition there...

I doubt that's going to happen. Visually, it's really nice, but (as far as I know) the first person camera is still almost unusable . Unless someone manages to fix the way Plasma handles subworlds.

What seems to be the problem? Is it something we can get a bug report open on?

As Tach said, it's about the UP vector of the first person camera defaulting to... well, up. The world's up, not the subworld's. Which means whatever you do, you can't have the first person camera to rotate on its local VIEW axis...

Well as long as one can still have an option for "classic Uru mode" or something. I actually LIKE the navigation system of using right click to move around the view. That way when I'm not holding the right mouse button I can move the cursor anywhere on the screen and not mess up my view, this especially helps for taking pictures/screen captures.

Of course, you would still be able to switch to "cursor mode" when right-clicking, as in Myst V. It's just annoying to hold down RMB for hours...
By the way, I found a workaround for it:

Show Spoiler

First, make sure you have Python (at least 2.3), and run the command line.
Then, type:

Code: Select all

import ctypes
ctypes.windll.user32.mouse_event(8,0,0,0,0)

Make sure you have the mouse over the Uru window when pressing enter.
Play.
Use rightclick to revert.
Then simply press ↑ in Python to bring back the last line, and lock the button again.

As for the misunderstanding between Calena and Ehren, Calena was just saying Cyan Ages weren't perfect either. In her shots, you can see:
- a triangle that uses another texture that all the other triangles linked to it
- a hovering water mesh (eh, I never noticed that one before !)
- a UV mapping problem (don't know how to explain it better)
- a buggy lens flare, that can be seen from behind the light source
- a texture that appears too pixellated around the doors, while the exact same texture looks fine on the walls nearby
Flaws in the city are easy to find, because it's a really big Age.

And when she says "education", it's that modelers grow accustomed to finding every small flaw in Ages, while normal players often don't pay them any attention. "Education" doesn't really fit, I'd rather use "habit"

[Karkadann]

I think thats the difference between doing something like this as a Hobie and doing it as a business as a hobie your not under pressure to produce something by a specific date and don't hafta take short cuts to meet the deadline
as a business you don't have the time to go over every little detail to make sure every thing looks like it should and works properly

by the way their is one you forgot

Show Spoiler

on the right side going down stairs from Takota plaza toward the Kiddish gallery their is one small triangular spot that is missing texture and mesh
you can see right threw floor

[Deledrius]

That stairway's collision is all wrong, too, Karkadann. Look closely at the midway landing and you'll see that you're walking nearly a foot above the ground.

[tachzusamm]

Okay, here's an update about Relativity.

Second release !

Earlier in the year, I was hopeful to get Relativity finished at the end of the year. But during the last months, I realized that finishing it soon is unlikely. Firstly because I had to put work into other tasks (mostly job related), secondly because while working on it, I got more and more ideas for Relativity. So I added this and that, began with a third option, which caused re-work on already done things, and realized that doing it this way would mean this sort of Age will never be in a state I would call "finished". Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's the nature of Relativity that it can constantly grow, because it's unlimited not only in one, but three dimensions.

So I had a talk with Calena and Karkadann, and we decided to release it in the state it is now, before Christmas. At least it's much better than the first release with that black sky and poor lighmapping.

Play online:
Diafero was so kind to put in on the Deep Island shard, so you can go explore it without the need of installing it.
Note: Seems much less is working online. (see edit below)

If you prefer to explore it alone, you can do that as well.

Stand-alone game files:
Relativity_WIP_2013_09_24.rar

But keep in mind that it's unfinished and just a Work-In-Progress. Some flaws here and there, and eventually still some strange stuff.
And you will experience there's some sort of main puzzle. But before you get mad trying to solve it, let me tell you that solving it is not possible right now. The main ... umm... "machine" is already working, but it does provoke nothing. So it's unsolveable, and there's no reward. (IC, imagine the machine is just broken now, and the DRC could step in later and repair it.)

Because this is still a community project, you could of course still come up with ideas what to put in; as said, it's still growing. Though I must say, the puzzle seems unfinished, but I already have in mind what the machine will cause, and what it will reveal. But if you have ideas regarding other stuff, sure, let's continue the discussion.

In the meantime, I would like to say thank you to all people who already contributed to Relativity (there's a book in the Age which mentions them all, go explore), and thank you for your continued love for Relativity and URU generally. This project would not have grown to this point without all your love.

Now... enjoy.


EDIT: Well... it seems we have severe problems online. Doors are not working, buttons do not work, neither the machine nor any lamp switches (though not really complicated).
Not sure what is happening, but maybe you should prefer the offline, standalone game over the online version for now.
Had no time to test it online before Christmas, so I'm really sorry.

Fixed.
Thanks, Diafero.
Some things might be still not working online as desired when there are multiple players in the Age, we will see.

[Ainia]

OMG OMG!!! I am just getting started on this new version and am *SOOO* loving it!! What a marvelous piece of work you Writers have done!! /me applauds long and heartily!!

I am loving the music, the little details (for instance, how the hedges need trimming), the beautiful skies... and on and on! And wow, I can *climb* the Penrose stairs!!

(BTW, so far, the buttons/clickables don't work but I assume that is simply because those parts aren't yet finished, right? I've tried the door alongside the welcome sign and the hedge gate so far...)

I just *love* this Christmas gift! THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU!!!!