GoW-only tool?

[belford]

Why would you want to restrict peoples ability to contribute to the game?

(BAD asked me this question up top.)

Answer: I do not want to do that. I didn't say I wanted to.

[BAD]

Good!

I hope you realize that if Cyan wishes to make the plugin open source, they are most likely looking for improvements on it. Yes, a small group of developers here could improve it a lot, but in doing that, they are closing off the potential for outsiders of that group to create even further improvements. Everything that is closed off and isolated eventually dies. I think Cyan is looking to see the plugin, and Uru itself be free to grow and proliferate.

[dtierce]

All of the authors of fan content are, by definition, volunteers. I think one of our goals should be to get as many people contributing as possible and (with the help of GoMa) help them to grow into their maximum potential. If we intentionally put any obstacles on that path, we are sabotaging the future of the game. All of the tools, resources, and documentation should be freely given to anyone with the ambition to pursue this noble vocation.

David Tierce

[Lontahv]

Mostly I don't want people that take everything very lightly to ruin everyone else's day (crash the server and or open up huge hacking for other games that use Plasma).

Ok, I said some pretty stupid things in those previous posts. It seems really normal to non-trouble-makers that you wouldn't, say; upload content when Cyan tells you not to.
I don't want Plasma to become doomed for Cyan making any money because anything that they make can be perfectly imported and given away in .max format (the way it is, nothing is "perfect" with exportation or importation). I don't want this to be a one-way door for Cyan (more than it already is).

I hope Cyan will deal with these issues (and has plans to). I think we should also be ready to deal with these issues if Cyan can't get rid of them completely. The last thing Cyan needs is someone publishing the plugin as their own under the GPL (Cyan would most likely get slapped by both GT and UBI).

I think you all want Cyan to succeed. We all have different ideas, only Cyan can decide. Lets try not to let this great thing they're doing for us turn bad and have them wish they'd never done it.

[Tahgtahv]

From Cyan's roadmap:

Release of the 3DS Max Plasma plugins for creating MORE content. Release of the source for the plugin (only) to the Guild of Writers. This will allow for the easier creation of fan created tools as well as being able to use what Cyan used for creating Myst Online content.

Now, I see the primary aim here: for the 3DS Max tool to serve as documentation and sample code for the GoW toolset. That's great -- that's a form of what I asked for yesterday. And since PyPRP is open-source, that means the information will be filtering out to where everybody can use it.

However, it still raises the *immediate* question: what does it mean for Cyan to hand something "only to the Guild of Writers"? Right now, the Guild of Writers is everybody who drops by this forum and says hi. (And I would hate to see that change!) So, as written, they're giving the 3DS Max tool to everybody. I'm pretty sure that's not what they meant.

"Release of the source for the plugin (only)" - I'm pretty sure this means that we will be getting the source for the plugin and not the rest of the game engine. Chogon said that part of the delay is trying to seperate the two, because they use a lot of the same code. I doubt it has anything to do with who they want using it.

That is all.

*Tahg goes back into hiding*

[belford]

Nynaveve wrote:

I don't want to sound like a snooty Maintainer here, but I'm at a loss as to why I keep seeing this sentiment all over. What is the problem? Why does no one want to let the GoMa have any responsibility here?

Responsibility is not the same thing is power. Also: both responsibility and power can rapidly turn toxic to an all-volunteer, service-oriented organization. Walk into that with your eyes open, please. (There's a *reason* that the GoW has never had an argument about whether person X or Y should be allowed to join the Guild.)

Just in this thread (and in many threads before) we see several models for what it means for the GoMa to have "responsibility". Are they beta-testing and providing feedback to creators? Are they deciding what Ages to put on the MORE servers? Are they submitting *advice* to Cyan on what Ages to put on the MORE servers? Are they deciding what Ages to put on the *main Cyan* MORE server, while individual shard admins make their own decisions about their own shards?

Have that discussion early. And talk to Cyan about it early. Because if Cyan thinks one thing and you think something else, then Cyan is going to *fix* that problem -- which means they're going to make a decision about GoMa membership that the members disagree with. And that's what I mean by "rebound". Screaming, tears, people walking out the door.

Same applies to GoW membership, if we and Cyan aren't on the same page about what it means for them to give "only us" a tool. That was my original point here. No matter how much you respect Cyan, if they start laying down law on our membership policies, it *will* be divisive and leave permanent scars.

And maybe we're on the same page, after all. We should ask Cyan about that. Then we'll know.

Tahgtahv wrote:

"Release of the source for the plugin (only)" - I'm pretty sure this means that we will be getting the source for the plugin and not the rest of the game engine.

Could be! We should ask them that.

[BAD]

Don't you guys understand that this information is out there? That if someone wanted to cause havoc they could with or without the plugin code.

It isn't like someone can look at the plugin code and suddenly figure out how to hack all of Cyan's game binaries. The only people who could possibly do that (and care enough to look into it that deeply) are already members here.

[Chacal]

Mostly I don't want people that take everything very lightly to ruin everyone else's day (crash the server and or open up huge hacking for other games that use Plasma).

I understand. Keeping the information hidden is not the way to prevent that.
A secure process (including final testing by the Maintainers) for adding new content, hardening the game server (code and infrastructure) will prevent that.

Maybe it's time we continued that security thread I tried to start a few months ago?

[Vamp]

I don't want Plasma to become doomed for Cyan making any money because anything that they make can be perfectly imported and given away in .max format

Looking at the plug-in we are currently using, it's designed SPECIFICALLY for Uru. Why should the new plug-in be any different?

The only way I see that working is if the game runs on the Plasma engine AND uses Python code. That and the plug-in would not work for another game unless some tweaks were made, which requires programmers know-how. Many of these programmers work for the GOW to produce new content and ages. I think that the plug-in is in good hands.

Just in this thread (and in many threads before) we see several models for what it means for the GoMa to have "responsibility". Are they beta-testing and providing feedback to creators? Are they deciding what Ages to put on the MORE servers? Are they submitting *advice* to Cyan on what Ages to put on the MORE servers? Are they deciding what Ages to put on the *main Cyan* MORE server, while individual shard admins make their own decisions about their own shards?

Well, look at the maintainer forum and you'll see. No use throwing out accusations unless you see for yourself. If you decide to make such accusations and ask questions such as those, you really don't know what they're doing, do you?

[Lontahv]

The problem that I keep coming too is that:

The GoW is not the "D'ni GuildofWriters" it never will be it never can be. Our GoW is more of a mass-3dModeling-education group. This is great because people can come in, try stuff out, and leave if they don't like it--no questions asked. I feel like the online GoW may have to be different. Just as the shard leaders (in the days of UU) had to decide how it should be run (I remember that turned out bad at the end ), we too may need some more structure(Maybe, maybe not--we have it in place--rather dormant right now).

All this depends on what Cyan want us to do. If they give us the tools and then ask for use to create story and (good) ages, we'll need to change the whole group around (make it a big age-production-house) and then arises the need for levels of the guild, leaders, enrollment etc. (like the GoG) If we are just a group in MORE (as we are now) then we need no change. If Cyan expects us to do something else... we must change to fit that (say they want us to sign NDAs).

It's all a big unknown. I sometimes think that Cyan wants this place to turn into something like the D'ni guild, sometimes I think they want us to stay as we are(in the post where I talked about the need to protect the source I was thinking along the lines of the ancient D'ni guild).