Sigh Not Again

[Tsar Hoikas]

The banner will be removed pending whatever internal shuffle goes on over there. Evidently you guys haven't been paying attention to the GoW-targeting that goes on there. This has been a "straw camel back" instance.

[Chacal]

No.
Stop defacing our forum.
Stop using the GoW official forum as your personal toy.

I had reservations about the latest change in the guild structure and you just validated them.

[Paradox]

No.
Stop defacing our forum.
Stop using the GoW official forum as your personal toy.

I had reservations about the latest change in the guild structure and you just validated them.

What I find eerie about the GoW administration ignoring a very reasonable request by its members is that this issue only exists because Cyan's forum administration ignored a very reasonable request by its members...

[andylegate]

No.
Stop defacing our forum.
Stop using the GoW official forum as your personal toy.

I had reservations about the latest change in the guild structure and you just validated them.

Unfortunately Chacal, you and other members of the GoW are wasting your breath I'm afraid. As you so rightly said, the current change in the guild structure document allows Hoikas to do what he wants with the forum and web sites with absolutely no approval needed from anyone else:

From the Guild Structure Document accepted on 20 Feb, 2011

In most non-critical matters the Guild Council has the authority to make decisions without the need of a proposal or representative approval.

These non-critical matters include:

- Day-to-day guild operations, like forum layout, adding new features to the website or guild infrastructure.
- Start-up of (non-permanent) special projects, either inter-guild or intra-guild.
- Matters concerning any of the tools developed at the GoW
- Organization of events, public-relations actions and other one-time activities.
- Any other matters that are of a non-permanent nature.

Matters that are clearly structural or permanent in nature, will be excluded from this arrangement and will need a proposal.

The word "permanent" is not actually defined anywhere in the document, allowing changed in the forum to be made with no prior approval of the rest of the guild (or guild council). The defaced banner could stay this way for months (again), and can be declared "not permanent".

If declared a "Experiment" the time limit is 1 month. However as the document clearly states, this is for the Structure, not layout or visibility of the Guild's web sites:

Experiments:

For trying out possible structure changes or projects that may be made permanent parts of the guild, the Guild Council has the authority to start them up "as an experiment". In cases of possible permanent structural changes, the time for the experiment will be one month maximum. For any other experiments it will be two months maximum. After the time for the experiment has expired, the Guild Representatives (see below) will vote on its continuation as a normal proposal. All experiments must be completely reversible. The representatives can counteract on these decisions immediately. For the counteraction to be considered valid, the proposal procedure has to be started within 48 hours of the decision being made public knowledge. This means that a simple draft proposal to counteract the decision must be posted in the decision forums.

I would say that Hoikas is violating the job definition of the document however. He is the Guild Councilor of Technical Direction who's job is clearly defined in the document as:

Councilor of Technical Direction: This person oversees and approves tools, plugins, services, internet-based systems, and any other technical needs of the GOW. This person will run all of the tool projects created within the GOW, and they will ultimately be in charge of any code the GOW recieves from Cyan.

Where as by changing the Guild Banner of the forum and any other web sites, without approval of the other council members, he is interfering with Branan's job as Councilor of Human Relations, who's job is clearly defined as:

Councilor of Human Relations: This person is responsible for all communications between the GOW and outside entities, including but not limited to Cyan and the general Uru community. This person will communicate any council plans for non-critical changes and experiments to the rest of the GoW. This person will be responsible for helping any GOW members who require assistance publicizing their GOW-related project(s). This person will oversee any guild recruitment drives. This person will assign any GOW liaisons to other Guilds, and be responsible for communicating with the liaisons from other Guilds.

By changing the banner, his is directly influencing "communications between the GOW and outside entities"

As a "representative", you and others can draft a proposal for change. The proceedure for this is quite clear in the document:

Procedure for proposals
1. A proposal is drafted by a representative or the council.
2. A new topic is made for it in the "Representative Discussion" section called "Discussion: <proposal name>".
3. The representatives and the council have four days to suggest changes to your proposal. If valid suggestions are made, the proposal procedure is suspended until those changes can be incorporated into the proposal.
4. Once all discussion and changes are finished a new topic is posted in "Submitted Proposals" called "Vote: <proposal name>" and the discussion topic for the proposal is locked. This new topic will have a poll in it and the final proposal (after discussion) This poll will stay open for 5 days. The representatives (and other guild members if they so choose) will vote "yes", "no", or "abstain".

I would like to hear how the other 2 Councilors feel about the change to the banner, especially since one of them at the time agreed that the "Redacted" mar was doing nothing but hurting the guild's image and public relations.

[kaelisebonrai]

I do not feel that the conflict of jobs is quite clear cut - he is responsible for all internet-based services. The forum is one. The banner hardly affects the communication of the GoW members on that service. It may irritate them, but it does not affect their communication any more than the previous one did. It *might* affect outside entities, *however* that is merely speculation, and is not possible to prove. =)

I'd say altering the banner is well within Hoikas' rights as councilor.

[GPNMilano]

I do not feel that the conflict of jobs is quite clear cut - he is responsible for all internet-based services. The forum is one. The banner hardly affects the communication of the GoW members on that service. It may irritate them, but it does not affect their communication any more than the previous one did. It *might* affect outside entities, *however* that is merely speculation, and is not possible to prove. =)

I'd say altering the banner is well within Hoikas' rights as councilor.

Whether or not it's in Hokias's right as a councilor to change the forum layout isn't the issue here. The issue is that the council is using said right to fuel their own personal motives. The Guild of Writers, as an entity, does not want said change. We understand what's going on over at the MOUL forums. And it pisses us off. But all changing the forum banner is doing is pissing us off more. It's not serving anyone, not helping any matter, it's just infuriating the members of this guild. So unless that was the council's motive behind changing the banner: To piss of the guild it's supposed to be serving, then it has failed in it's mission.

[kaelisebonrai]

The Guild of Writers, as an entity, does not want said change.

Since when do you speak for the /entire/ Guild? Since when are *you* the sole voice of a guild of many? Who gave you the *right* the define what the GoW as an /entity/ wants or does not want?

*You*, or *Chacal*, or *Andy* might not want it. Others might not want it. But individuals do *not* speak for the Guild as an entity.

I am quite fine with it. I don't see why it is a big deal. In MY opinion, it is not defacing the forums at all. =P *I* don't speak for the guild.

But you certainly don't either.

[diafero]

Guys (and girls) please stop that paragraph-nitpicking, did it really come that far we need it? That'd be sad
As Chloe pointed out, the issue is not whether changing those pixels is within the rights of anybody. I give a damn about those guild structure documents, honestly. The issue is that the changed logo inappropriate, in the eyes of most who gave their opinion in this thread, with good reasons.

I like these forums because all the politics, treachery, pedants and witch-hunts from the MOUL forums (and occasionally other forums) can not be found here. It's mostly about getting things done, and helping others to do so, and enjoying the game - sure there are occasional disagreements, but it stays civil. Usually. Please keep it that way.

[GPNMilano]

EDIT:

I Had posted a long scathing retort to Kaelis latest post. But diafero's right, this should stay civil.

Kaelis, so far in this thread, you and Hoikas are the only ones who have voiced approval of the banner. And I KNOW that there are those who've spoken up here that both you and Hoikas respect, and some that you don't. However when both people you respect, and people that you don't respect are saying something is wrong. Isn't that a general indication that maybe, just maybe this isn't the right way to go about making your statement heard.

[kaelisebonrai]

sure - some people have posted about it. There are many more that have not posted at all. There are also those who have not posted that don't see it as a big deal, or as defacing the forums.

If it was such a terrible, horrible big deal.. more would've posted, don't you think? *shrug*