Sigh Not Again

[Tsar Hoikas]

You know, if I had received a PM telling me "Adam, I hate this banner. Let's change it back to the way it was before." it would have been gone. You might even find that I don't disagree with some of your points. However, if you tell me in the public forum that I'm having a "hissy fit" (a Nalates worthy statement), then do you really expect me to sympathize? We have freedom of speech here, but how you use it is up to you.

Oh, demands don't help either.

That's all I have to say.

[GPNMilano]

You know, if I had received a PM telling me "Adam, I hate this banner. Let's change it back to the way it was before." it would have been gone. You might even find that I don't disagree with some of your points. However, if you tell me in the public forum that I'm having a "hissy fit" (a Nalates worthy statement), then do you really expect me to sympathize? We have freedom of speech here, but how you use it is up to you.

Oh, demands don't help either.

That's all I have to say.

Hoikas, my point is that I shouldn't have needed to send you a PM to tell you that this was a bad idea. After the last time it was changed and the two threads that went along with it when people complained about it the first time. I would think, and, I would hope, that those in charge, would think it would probably not be a great thing to try for a second time. Imagine my surprise when I come to my homepage (Yes, this forum is my default home page.) and find the banner yet again defaced with a censor bar across it. Yes I do believe in this instance changing the banner was a hissy fit. You were angry cause of what happened to you and Luna and you lashed out and tried to make a statement. I don't have an issue with that. I agree with your motives, and no one here has said they don't. What is at issue is that your using the forum banner as a way to protest, which after two threads that went on for months at end without the change being reverted, I'd hope you and the others would learn wasn't the greatest way to protest.

All the last time did was make the Guild look like idiots. We got laughed at, repeatedly for it in other forums. People made a joke about it till it went away. And yet you brought it back, and in an instance that was not warranted at all. All this is doing is making us look like children, it's reinforcing an idea that's already in the heads of others on the other Guild and MOUL forums. All changing the banner is doing is giving more ammunition to the people who already don't like us. Is that really what we need right now?

EDIT: Some minor spelling mistakes cause I type to fast.

[Neereus]

Not really well known here, mostly a lurker slowly getting into the age making thing, so my view probably is out of line, but...

When those in charge start using public assets to engage in a personal vendetta, perhaps it's time those in charge no longer be in charge.

[Tsar Hoikas]

Public assets? Last time I checked, I pay the bills here. If you want to take over that responsibility, go for it....

I'll state again, if you have a problem with something, a nice message is the way to go. I've had one person take me up on that now, and I'm considering what (s)he said. You don't get banned for disagreeing here.

[andylegate]

~snip~

*You*, or *Chacal*, or *Andy* might not want it. Others might not want it. But individuals do *not* speak for the Guild as an entity.

I am quite fine with it. I don't see why it is a big deal. In MY opinion, it is not defacing the forums at all. =P *I* don't speak for the guild.

But you certainly don't either.

See, you are looking at it as individuals. Instead take a look at how many have posted that they do not agree with the action that was taken, verses those that do. At least 7 individuals have spoken up that they do not agree with changing the banner. Only 2 have said that they are for it, one of which is the person that performed the action.

While individuals may not count and speak for the guild as an entity, groups of them do. "Majority Rules" as the saying goes. And that is how this guild used to be, and was very, very proud of that fact. That in all of the Uru community, only the GoW has no "dictators" or "Rulers" that do not listen to the guild members. Instead, the GoW has for a very long time now proudly pointed out that the Majority Rules here, and things are very democratic with much discussion and debate before hand.
However, over time, it seems as though this has changed. Instead, a small group of people have taken charge, and the Majority no longer Rules, but instead these few individuals decide what is best, no mater how the rest of the guild feels about it.
But then, really not too many people here should act surprised or upset about this. There has been plenty of time and discussion while this change was going on, and the people here at the GoW had more than enough time to protest it, or change it, but instead have become dormant, MIA, or just didn't care anymore. So the GoW ended up with actual "leaders" (something that several years ago I almost got lynched for even suggesting such a thing happen over here, heh, hows that for irony?), and the structure that was approved allows those leaders to pretty much do what they want, when they want no mater what the Majority thinks. Again, the Majority has no one to blame but themselves for that.

As for "Not a lot of people have come here to complain yet.", just wait, the day is young, this thread is young. Many that do lurk here don't check the forum every day, but only every other day or every few days. Or, they don't even read all the topics and do not refresh their browser (I didn't notice the banner change until GPN said something and I had to hit Refresh on my browser to see it). But people will come and voice their opinions and thoughts on it.

But so far the trend shows: people are not happy about this.

[Chacal]

You know, if I had received a PM telling me "Adam, I hate this banner. Let's change it back to the way it was before." it would have been gone.

Subject: Enough

Sent: 25 Jun 2010, 02:42
From: Chacal
To: Tsar Hoikas
Adam, this "Message redacted" thing is getting old.
I was amused at first, but now I cringe every time I see it.

Besides, do we care that much about what happens on the MOUL forum?

I don't think we should deface OUR banner because of problems on THEIR forum.
It makes it look like they have some power over us.
Chacal

Never got an answer.
That was before the public discussion.

[Tsar Hoikas]

Chacal, I'm sorry for never answering that PM. Back in the summer of 2010, I was very busy with a strenuous summer class (Organic Chemistry) and left most of the day-to-day moderating/administration to people with more time than I did. I only made one post on the forum during that time, and that was simply to announce that I had "secured GuildOfWirters.org." I certainly read the PM, but I'm not sure if I said anything about it to anyone before I dashed off to class, where I likely completely forgot about it.

However, over time, it seems as though this has changed. Instead, a small group of people have taken charge, and the Majority no longer Rules, but instead these few individuals decide what is best, no mater how the rest of the guild feels about it.

Fail.

The current count is at two, for anyone who cares about the issue rather than just stirring up crap (that remark wasn't directed you, Chacal--I failed last summer after all).

[Whilyam]

My 2 cents. I understand where those who dislike the banner are coming from, but I think the banner should remain for a while longer. For one thing, it's "defacing" only if you care about it. I don't really care about the banner, I know what site I'm on. I don't see how this has any impact on the use of this forum. The only concern I can think of is for new people getting confused. The solution is easy: explain that the Cyan devs are and have been sending mixed signals for years and the banner sometimes gets changed to reflect the Writers'* frustration at that.

*Writers minus the few people who seem to live off of trying to troll he Guild leadership.

[diafero]

Andy, why are you (more or less) subtly attacking the guild here? We don't have no leaders. We got a forum admin, sure. That admin occasionally acts in a debatable way, no surprise here. What are you aiming at after all? Bringing us up against Hoikas et al.?

While this discussion goes on, I found a nice solution for me Just blocking that banner with AdBlock. Makes the headline a bit boring, admittedly, but I still prefer it

[andylegate]

Andy, why are you (more or less) subtly attacking the guild here? We don't have no leaders. We got a forum admin, sure. That admin occasionally acts in a debatable way, no surprise here. What are you aiming at after all? Bringing us up against Hoikas et al.?

While this discussion goes on, I found a nice solution for me Just blocking that banner with AdBlock. Makes the headline a bit boring, admittedly, but I still prefer it

No, no! That is not what I was trying to point out. I was simply trying to show how this guild has changed over time, and if people were unhappy with how things work now, there has been plenty of time, opertunity, etc, to change or propose changes, but that most have not, or just accepted thing, or those that do care are the ones that have made the changes.

And there is nothing wrong with that: things change. Period. This is how the world works.

As Hoikas told me in a PM, he mistook what I was saying too and understands I was not attacking this guild or the people in it. I care what happens here too as I actually spent more time here than over at the Late GoMa way back when.

So if anyone reading and contributing to this thread thought I was attacking, trolling the guild or people, I apologize for making it look or sound that way, and I'll bow out of this thread, as it was fun debating, and I was glad to see so many people concerned about things here. But it's getting personal now (or at least feels that way), so I'll go back to lurking and working on my light maps for the Neolbah neighborhood I've been working on, and a nap since I was up all night.