finding old or making new?

[saavadro]

there is just one thing I don't understand. When we build ages in the OOC sense, how does that translate IC? Did we "discover" the age from the city or did we, the explorers, learn the Art of Writing, find a blank descriptive book, and WRITE it? if it is the latter, it wouldn't make sense to have old D'ni storied attached to our ages.

[belford]

Cyan hasn't given us any guidance on that. So it's entirely up to you, with the caveat that they may lay down rules in the future.

(Cyan people have *talked about* requiring that all fan ages be "written new". But that was in earlier phases of Uru, and years ago, literally. A bunch of the current Writing projects are, at minimum, using names in the D'ni language.)

[Pryftan]

See this topic, which is my attempt to set up a list of rules under which we can "discover" Ages. I believe we should be able to both restore and create, and I'll be fighting for the right to do so until Cyan's final word is that we absolutely cannot. I've gotten both J.D. Barnes and Reteltee to commit to prodding the DRC about it, and J.D. asked Marie when he talked to her but she couldn't commit to anything..

[Whilyam]

My opinion is for us to play it safe and make all Ages be "written by us" not "discovered by us". But ultimately it is up to you as you have to deal with what happens (depending on the rules)

[bluewyvern]

I still strongly believe that when word comes down from Cyan, it will be that we are NOT to do D'ni-themed Ages or use any Cyan content. That just seems to be the way the wind is blowing. In the meantime, I will strongly encourage dedicating our resources to the development of original concepts only, since we know those are perfectly okay and won't get stopped later on down the line. If in the future Cyan surprises us and greenlights D'ni Ages, then at that point we can give a happy whoop and throw our hats in the air and get to work on all our D'ni concepts. Until then it seems like just courting disappointment and disaster to have every Age concept be a D'ni-something.

I'm a little dismayed at how many of the proposed Ages have D'ni elements in them. Many of them are fantastic concepts, and could stand alone perfectly well and suffer nothing if the D'ni elements were just changed to something else. The Gas-Mine Age, for instance -- I love this concept and want to see it made, but it doesn't have to be D'ni. If we do design it as D'ni, I'm afraid that a few months down the line we'll just have to unravel it all and go back to square one. (I know, the concept's been changed to "Modern D'ni" Guilds, but that brings up its own set of problems...all complications could be avoided in a purely original concept.)

But hey, we're all here as Myst fans, and our ideas are tied up in the universe we love -- and that means D'ni. It's just what we think when we think Age, that's understandable. For Uru, I think we need to expand our horizons a bit...we're being encouraged to be original. Maybe we should remember Atrus's Ages...new, virgin Ages written by one man, post-D'ni, each a riff on a single new, fantastic theme or motif. It can still feel like part of the Myst universe without a big D'ni industrial facility planted in the middle of it.

Incidentally, if Uru is officially limited to original content only, I would still love to see some of these D'ni Ages developed independently as fan games. Many of them are really great ideas, and are so intrinsically D'ni that they can't really be picked apart and made as original Ages. A lot of them come with a great backstory, too, that's possibly better served by a linear storytelling vehicle like a single-player game. I loves me some fan games...

One more point. Practical considerations aside, as a purely personal preference I vastly prefer to do original Ages over "discoveries" because of the IC mission of the Guild. We are participating so much more fully in the storyline if we pretend to be explorers grappling with the rehevkor and the gahrohevtee, learning the Art and writing new Ages sprung from our own minds. To me, it's much more satisfying. I really do want to leave the restoration of D'ni to Cyan and go make the new Ages Watson spoke to us about. I understand that this is a minority opinion, and regardless, it's separate from the question of what we're actually allowed to do.

Of course, all of this has been said before (I didn't mean to go on so long when I started), and we're still at a standstill. There will continue to be disagreement on this issue until Cyan officially recognizes us and tells us something concrete. Until then, we're just guessing.

[BAD]

I like the idea of both writing and finding as well.

I disagree that Cyan will forbid us making discovered ages based on the fact that no matter how original we make our ages, they will still require us using derivative material of Cyan's in order to use the age in any of the Uru games. IP is not limited to what you see or hear, but includes code, story, and many other things we will have to use.

However, I do agree that Cyan will not accept many of our found ages. This is because we may step on their toes story wise. If Cyan had a concept for anything even remotely similar to something we created, chances are they will reject it. That said, I do believe as long as we shy away from main characters, and any part of the D'ni history that we have seen or read, we should be fine. Again this is speculation, but I have had experience with how Cyan deals with derivative work, and I have seen them accept things that seemed to go to far story wise, but they accepted anyways.

That was some time ago though, and the climate has changed, so I guess what I am saying, is I am unsure of anything............

/RUN

[Chacal]

I'm thinking of four models for including user content in MOUL.

1- The discovery model - already discussed abundantly.

IC: An explorer finds a book to a previously unknown Age. This is submitted to the DRC for acceptation. If deemed worthy, Maintainers are sent to it for some time. If deemed safe, DRC adds the linking book in the Library in the City.

OOC: A team makes a new Age, publishes it to ULM. After peer review, a MOUL version is submitted to Cyan. If Cyan likes it and can use it, it adapts it to its taste and needs, then puts it on a test server for QA by the Maintainers, after which it schedules the Age for a future update.

2- The Teledahn/Sharper model

IC: The DRC finds a book to a previously unknown Age. They hire a team for restoring the Age and make it safe for explorers. The DRC receives progress reports and does occasional visits. When the restoration work is completed, Maintainers are sent to it for some time. If deemed safe, DRC adds the linking book in the Library in the City. Restoration journals similar to Sharper's journal are kept and publicly available so anticipation is great among explorers.

OOC: Cyan has specific needs for an Age and hires a team of volunteer builders (possibly through the GoW). If a team picks up the job, Cyan gives them a complete list of requirements and a partial Age (geometry, general layout, linking point, possibly some texture files, objects, python code). Versions are delivered to Cyan according to the current scheme (model, texture, wiring, etc). There is no peer review. A final version is delivered, which Cyan puts on a test server for QA by the Maintainers. After QA, it schedules the Age for a future update.

3- The contest model

IC: to further advance the restoration of the City or available Ages, the DRC opens a contest similar to the stained glass restoration contests. The theme would be in the lines of "Restore the room behind the door on the second landing of the great stairs". The DRC would specifiy the room measurements, function and other constraints. At some undisclosed point in the future, the door would be unlocked and we could explore the winning entry.

OOC: Same as IC except Cyan would publish a prp with a correctly sized and shaped room for fitting behind the door (maximum size, the submitted room could be smaller). The winning entry would be put on a test server for QA by the Maintainers. It would then be secretly added in a monthly update. This would encourage continual exploration. New explorers would stand a good chance of discovering it, whereas we don't try to open doors anymore.

4- The original Age model

IC: Since the restoration began, a few explorers have started studying the Art of Writing. They are rediscovering the Art from scratch much as Gehn, Atrus and Catherine have done before. As they gain experience and expertise, their work is submitted to the DRC for acceptation. If deemed worthy, Maintainers are sent to it for some time. If deemed safe, DRC adds the linking book in the Library in the City. Most of the new Writers have joined the new Guild of Writers, an organization providing help and feedback, as well as ways for all explorers to view the work in progress and provide comments and suggestions, and even lend a hand. In that way, the new Guild is much different from the old one, having shed the secrecy and elitism which used to caracterize it.

OOC: This is the simplest model, in which entirely new concepts are being developed. These may or may not fit with Cyan's storylines. Accordingly, these Ages would be available to players who don't mind the risk of breaking the continuity or suspension of disbelief. There would have to be a way of ensuring new players couldn't end up on these Ages by accident, without being warned. For example, the linking books could be stored in a reserved level of the Library, or an entirely different building with posted warnings. I entirely subscribe to Belford's ideas about original Ages being freely available for everyone in an entirely transparent process (see his post here. This is pretty much the same model as #1, except there would be no secrecy at all because the Age would not be intended to gather any official status. This sentence in the IC section " If deemed worthy, Maintainers are sent to it for some time. If deemed safe, DRC adds the linking book in the Library in the City." actually means only "if the Age isn't bugged".

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Note 1: These four models are not mutually exclusive.
Note 2: These are just models, not detailed processes.
Note 3: Model 3 is fascinating but much more risky, as a bugged entry could crash the whole City (unless it's in a separate prp file?). Also, there may be a reason why Cyan hasn't provided new content in the City since the original Live. Maybe the City can't be developped further for performance reasons, or maybe the current model is so bugged that any more fiddling with it is hopeless.

[BAD]

I like what you got there Chacal!

I think you have touched upon some very real ways things could happen.

[Pryftan]

I love the Teledahn/Sharper concept, and I've been talking with anybody I could find about it to gather support. I suppose however that this list is just designed to cover options for "discovered" Ages, right? 'cause there's still the option in which the Writers write their own original Age, and Cyan just hosts it rather than being directly involved at all other than ensuring no copyrights have been broken. I feel like most of our Ages should be that sort of thing.

[Chacal]

Yes, I remember you were enthusiastic when I mentioned it in the Cavern (this was during the boring "JDBarnes/Echo Mckenzie/I see dead people" drama last week-end). That prompted me to come here and get involved again.

To be honest, I haven't given much thought to the concept of original Ages, because I don't like the idea too much. I think the D'ni are gone and their art went with them. The only way to learn it would be to go live in Releeshan and be accepted by whatever remains of the Writer's guild, which doesn't seem likely. But I suppose it could be model 4. Please elaborate and I'll add it.

And to answer a previous point, I don't think it's possible for us to write Ages without referring to the D'ni universe. I don't think Cyan would forbid it. This is very different than using Cyan's textures, music or objects. After all, our Ages would be integrated into MOUL, not competing with it.