Speaking of leadership...

[belford]

Someone just posted on the MOUL forums saying that he went to the Writers Pub, saw nobody, and went home. He didn't know about this forum until he (blindly) tried a web search.

Okay, that's fair. The http://forum.guildofwriters.com// address should be posted on the Writers Pub imager. All the time. I've seen it there occasionally, but then sometimes it falls off. That means, somebody should go by every day and repost it if necessary.

Is somebody doing that?

This is the kind of "organization" which the Guild needs, and of course it's not leadership; it's boring old work. There will be a lot of that. I'd be a lot happier if we were talking about elections for the position of "taking care of the boring stuff like that", rather than about *making decisions*.

[Tweek]

I can create a welcome image for the pub viewer if you want. Guild Symbol and website address that I can ask Ryan to place into my KI for me.

I can send it out to whoever wants it for reposting.

[Paradox]

Woo Tweek!

Could you maybe be persuaded to include a KI shot of Ahra Pahts in that Image?

[BAD]

Bedford,

Again you are confusing the reason to have a council. They will not be telling anyone what to do, or making decisions for the guild. Why do you keep pushing that? The only time they will make any kind of decision is when the guild wants them too.

This is another example of something the council could take care of. Are you volunteering to make sure the imager always has a link to the forums up? In this case Tweek did volunteer to help but he didn't offer to check everyday for us. We could make it a part of the councils duty to make sure that people can find the forums and information on the GOW and age building. It would be easier to do than to (once again) wait around for someone to take the initiative.

This is the kind of "organization" which the Guild needs, and of course it's not leadership; it's boring old work. There will be a lot of that. I'd be a lot happier if we were talking about elections for the position of "taking care of the boring stuff like that", rather than about *making decisions*.

I completely agree, and that is why we want to get the ball rolling on the council.

[Simon_Bitdiddle]

I nominate myself as the Grand High Poobah of Bureaucracy!

Seriously though, I've been thinking about putting together a worksheet to help facilitate the design process for Age building; look for the thread once I get my thoughts in order.

[Dovahn]

This is the kind of "organization" which the Guild needs, and of course it's not leadership; it's boring old work. There will be a lot of that. I'd be a lot happier if we were talking about elections for the position of "taking care of the boring stuff like that", rather than about *making decisions*.

Are you volunteering?

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's fair for you to say, "This is what needs to get done, not what you're actually doing," and then not do anything. It's like backseat driving, or saying "You missed a spot!" when someone else is cleaning.

As for your suggestion, I do agree, since most people are going to come across the GoW in-game. In fact, I'm often irritated based on the fact that, to follow the story, you essentially need to use the forums. More info in-game is better.

Dovahn

[belford]

Nope! Not volunteering. You'll know when I volunteer to do something, because I'll say "I will do X."

I don't feel bad about this post. My reasoning is thus: I am concerned about the large amount of verbiage and energy being expended on the idea of a Guild council and Guild leader. I think they are a distraction and solve no important problem that we currently have. I worry that they will *create* a problem, because a council with no clear mission creates a mission for itself, and that is a bad road.

But I don't just want to post and say "That's a terrible idea". I want to offer a better alternative. Here is one: a practical issue which we could be discussing instead. If people say "Yeah, that makes sense" then I have supported my case. If nobody volunteers then that's unfortunate, but it's still a position I have presented.

If people don't agree with me, then that's life.

Also, I'm letting people here know about a concern that was raised on the MOUL forums. That's valid in its own right.

BAD wrote: "We could make it a part of the councils duty to make sure that people can find the forums and information on the GOW and age building."

Seems to me that you're talking about finding someone to volunteer to find someone to volunteer to keep the messages posted. That's one too many steps for me.

I mean, what are you envisioning for such an Act of Council? Hypothetical Councilperson would post on the forums and say "Hey, we should be keeping the imagers posted!" Well, heck, I just did that. Discuss.

[BAD]

Beford,

So far, as I can see, you haven't supported anything that you claim the council will do negatively. You claim the council will slow things down, but I can't imagine how. Perhaps if you wrote an example of how that would happen, I may better understand where you are coming from.

I have already detailed ways the Council can be our advertisers, and contact people asking them to volunteer. I would imagine they may ask people privately, and ask those they think would be good at the job.

We haven't had much verbiage about a council at all in my eyes. I have seen situations far worse than this. Actually that is why I am so passionate about helping form this council, so I can help avoid the pitfalls of the past.

[belford]

Having now caught up on the "When to elect" thread...

I have already detailed ways the Council can be our advertisers, and contact people asking them to volunteer.

You have listed hypothetical situations in which the Council *could* do that. You haven't named anything you want them to advertise, or any roles you think need volunteers. (Except the one I started this thread with.) You haven't pointed at any disagreements that a Council could adjudicate.

I don't necessarily think a Council will slow things down. What I fear is that a Council will meet, have nothing to do, and adjourn. Then they'll meet again, have nothing to do, and adjourn. Then they'll either (a) not bother meeting any more, or (b) get frustrated with the rest of us for not making use of them. "Why the heck are we bothering with this?" is a lose-lose question: either there is no reason, or the group *invents* a reason in order to make itself important.

Now, maybe you want a group of people to sit down once a week and talk about what the Guild could be doing. (Advertising ideas, service ideas, etc.) That's plausible. But why hold elections for that group? Announce it, ask for volunteers, and do it. Nothing about a voting process makes those meetings more legitimate, interesting, or productive.

If, after the ideas come up, people disagree about which to spend effort on -- *then* you have a reason for a council.

An elected body is not a magic process for making things happen. It's a way of resolving disagreements.

[Pryftan]

Hm. It's kind of like you're not connecting the two parts of your argument. You allow for the possibility for the council to moderate project leadership, and say you worry they won't do much.. and then suggest they can talk about possible things the Guild could be doing, and in that case, shouldn't be elected. I feel like they'd do both, and if they're moderating project leadership, I think they should be elected.

Again, I don't understand the argument against elections. I mean, you can argue they're unnecessary all you want, but as for them being a bad thing.. I just don't see it. If you think they're simply unnecessary, just let the people who want them carry them out, and then we'll have a system that works just like you want it to only with elected officials instead of volunteers. There's no difference if you think elections aren't necessary.