A Small Essay

[Nek'rahm]

I sent him a PM about my idea. So, right now, I'm waiting to see if he will respond to my ideas about Eh'ko.

For right now though, I'm loving where this is going.

[Tyion]

It;'s shiny!!

[Grogyan]

...uh, can we talk about Reboot again?

Actually, can we talk about Eh'ko again? Looking forward to more screen shots.

Great cartoon

And i'm with Robert, I too would like to see more screenies of this Age

[pappou]

Since some of you have gone to the trouble of responding to my small essay, i feel i should respect your efforts by responding to certain responses. I say this because normally, i don't feel these sorts of re-replies work any better than did the original notions. People will still read into my words their own thinking. If the reader's set of mind misreads the first time, succeeding fixes are not likely to change anything, are they?

So, my responding (here) is done to correct a few statements which i stated badly, and to offer my apologies where i find i was in error – thanks to your penetrating analyses.

First i will make my responses to your comments and after that i may take the time for an observation or two concerning this whole exercise. Also, i hope i do not further offend by not entering huge lists of quotations here. In academic papers that is sometimes necessary, although tedious. But in this case if you are offended at my summaries, i guess you will just have to go back and read the messages for yourself. Sorry.

Robert "greendragoon" Starbuck said:

[1] “...Pappou, I think you should speak for yourself .“

I think i would not mention this except back in UU one of the venerable overseers made the same comment. Perhaps, there is something in my manner of writing which suggests that i speak for someone else? Both times i have read this admonition with great surprise. I sit on no boards and head no committees, but more than that, i make no pretense of speaking anything but truth -- and I attempt truth-speak only for myself. I however do advocate it for everyone. If that seems offensive, what more can i say?

[2] you sound like there's a ticking clock...

Maybe there is? You said it. Do you think so?

[3] “Accusing the entire GoW of egotism”

This accusation has caused me to look back over my message (I hate reading these things after they are published), and i cannot see where i said that.
But now that YOU mention it, i suppose there is some small justification for painting the entire GoW with the tar brush of egotism. After all, most everyone i know is possessed of an ego – including myself.
However, that was NOT my thinking. The ego thermometer would measure the blatant egos, the egos above the norm. It would speak to those egos who make themselves obvious by pushing to the head of the line (so to speak; that is a metaphor).


Kierra said:

“Doing group efforts may sound like a good idea in theory, but not in practice.”

Her meaning was that such a group is likely to implode with infighting due to the disparity between the talents of individuals.

My thinking goes contrary to this. It is that people of similar talents are more likely to resent each other, whereas an aggregate of various talents is more likely to cement a group together. However, we all know that Murphy's Law dooms every group effort from the start. I guess it depends upon your own individual justifications.

She also said: ““Trying to guilt us into forming groups with "thermometers" that gauge our "egos" just because we enjoy working alone is most certainly not the solution. “

There are two thoughts here:
1. Laying on guilt because of our 'egos';
and
2. We who enjoy working alone.

The two notions have no essential connection. You MAY connect them if you choose, but that is your choice.

1. Laying guilt on ego trips – i think you are right; it did come out sounding that way, and i should not make such accusations. That is the sort of individual judgment i do NOT intend to make and i apologize for the implications here. What i DO say is that egotism is destructive of cooperative efforts. What do you think? Do you think egotism is healthy?

2. As for working alone, i assign NO guilt for that; my feeling is that individual work IS necessary, especially now – but to some extent at all times. I suppose the problem would be that if everyone wants to really work individually, then the help given to others (which has been such a wonderful part of this Guild) may dry up; and surely, there will be no effort amongst dedicated loners to create a group. That is a sad thought, to my mind (speaking only for myself).


Andy Legate said:

Exactly how are you defining the word "Age" ?
Are you implying ...
flaws
Cyan ..."non-Ages" as they do contain flaws
anything made by individuals can not be an "Age"

I see there is more sensitivity to these two notions that I had imagined. And they are at least two distinct notions.

First, 'What is an Age?' You are correct. I failed to specify that by 'Age' i did not mean 'age'. The former was, in my mind, related to D'eux's concept of 'Age' which is fully explorable, of very high quality and ready for publication.
I mentioned nothing about 'flaws'. Sorry, Andy, if that touches a sensitive nerve. But you are putting words into my mouth with your 'what ifs'.

As for 'age', which i did not mention, i suppose that would include less ambitious works of all kinds: What you think about when you start your journal; what you put together trying to get Blender to smile upon your efforts; and even the several 'agelets' which have been so beautifully done here. But nothing that has been done so far in GoW amounts to an 'Age'.

I don't think flawlessness was part of what i was saying. Perfection belongs to others to comment upon.

Also you said:
“...there are many, many problems with a group...”
and
“... you should already know what the response is to the idea of any kind of authority over here [are] bad...”

Yes, all the guilds seem to have suffered to some extent when they set out to organize their ranks – some more than others. And those who suffer from those decisions may still be suffering. In fact, i must admit that i have never seen the startup of any organization which was able to avoid these conflicts of ego, entirely. Yet, some have overcome them. If you wonder which ones they are, take a look in the business pages.
And not all of them are based upon monetary incentive. You may not approve of them, but there are a great many non profit organizations – everything from the Boy Scouts to the US Navy.

Andy also said something to the effect:

Many of your statements imply that those individuals who are working on their own Ages, by themselves are suffering from egotism.

As i told Kierra, this was a mistake on my part. I do NOT at all intend to condemn those who work on their own.

I do say, contrary to you guys, that an individual cannot produce an 'AGE'.

And Andy said something about my use of the word, 'concentration'. I was not speaking of individual concentration, as when one is trying to figure out what i have been saying. I was rather thinking of the concentrated efforts of the group.

****************************************************

And i feel certain that anyone who has read this far, is loosing their's by now.

I will bow out by saying that these responses to my essay suggest to me (I speak only for myself) that some people are actually more concerned about their individuality in the GoW network, then they are about their egos.

My feeling from reading these is that all this complaining over 'ego' is just a flag. It is really a false banner. What they seem more concerned about, and ready to fight over, is their position as independent age makers. And i say, Why not? Nothing wrong in that. Still...

This acute concern is all news to me. I had not thought that having a group of writers working toward a single Age, would in any way threaten the individual age makers. I do not think that it would. The vigor of their responses really surprises me.

But then, i am guilty of being a loner (at one time i was even accused of being an individualist), and perhaps i see these things poorly. Yes, i'm sure i do. Nevertheless, I applaud those who will join together of their own accord (someone accused me of 'forcing them'; thats a laugh) – who will, of their own accord, join together and build an ark which may someday float a true Age.

More power to 'em.

[D'eux]

*producer does not include screen shots or teaser trailers ... it means someone with the balls to actually release their work to the community

Then I will post no more updates, either on Eh'ko or any other Age content I write. I have put long, painstaking and often tiring hours into Eh'ko so far and have gladly and freely shared what I have with the community. It is my Age, for my enjoyment and I'll share it if I choose to. I have no obligation to release *anything* to the community. If I do, it'll be when I feel it is ready and representative of all that Eh'ko means to me. Additionally, if you feel you have been directly criticised by any 'non-producers', then I agree it is by those who would rather frequent this forum making churlish comments about others, than spending their time writing Ages.

I am deeply offended that my thread has been hijacked so that the rest of the MYST/URU/MOUL community can openly read the GoW bickering against one another. I have no issue with sharing nostalgic memories of 3D generated cartoons, but I will not continue posting updates in a thread where fellows draw more attention to their own opinons and thus tear down the community than they do to a growing and developing Age that hopefully inspires it.

I am making a specific point of not responding to any of the comments posted here because I don't want to read your continuing criticisms of each other. We are all entitled to our opinions and I respect each and every member of this Guild for their views and feelings. But I am disgusted that you have chosen my Age creation thread to argue amongst yourselves.

As far as I am concerned, this thread is now closed.

-: D'eux :-

[D'Lanor]

*producer does not include screen shots or teaser trailers ... it means someone with the balls to actually release their work to the community

D'eux, just so you know. He did not aim that at you, since you did include those things.

[D'eux]

D'lanor, I suggest you re-read it.

-: D'eux :-

[D'Lanor]

I read it differently, but maybe that is because I have helped boblishman with his new age and we were actually doing what you suggested, working as a team on one age. Albeit for a small sub project within the whole of the age.

Team projects work well as long as there is one accepted team leader. That leader would logically be the designer. It is IMO the job of the other team members to make the views of the designer become reality.

During this little project for example I had initially built something else than the designer had in mind. So once it became clear what it should have been I changed it, even though I preferred it my way.

[boblishman]

I would just point out that this thread "changed topic" at the point the following was written (by yourself) ...

Which does raise a thought about writing sizable and quality Ages for potential use in a new MOUL/UU environment, and that is that quite frankly it's going to be nigh on impossible for individuals to write complete, interesting and engaging Ages on their own

No-one has had more praise for the quality of work you have shown us than myself ... and, to repeat, it's outstanding, without question, and has "raised the bar" for all Age creators, for which I am very grateful.

However, what your statement did though, was to devalue the (equally hard, long hours of painstaking) work that other Age creators have done (and released) so far ... which I find to be very negative. I was particulary disapointed by your (apparent) belief that the other creators will not be able to create Ages that are "complete, interesting and engaging" ...

I agree with you that no-one should be "forced" into releasing their work. However, releasing it not only encourages new writers to begin, but also excites existing writers to improve on their work... and the community can see that "progress" is being made in "The Art".

The truth is that Age creators are already collaborating with each other (**) here on the forums, swapping tips, tricks, techniques and even giving "pep talks" when the road ahead seems so tough ... and what they need at the moment is encouragement from someone as talented as yourself ... and not the negativity that your statement implies

It's a shame that you will not be releasing any more updates, because that would encourage other writers and inspire new ones ...

(**) EDIT: (as you can see from D'Lanor's post above, which was posted as I was writing this one)

[andylegate]

I am deeply offended that my thread has been hijacked so that the rest of the MYST/URU/MOUL community can openly read the GoW bickering against one another. I have no issue with sharing nostalgic memories of 3D generated cartoons, but I will not continue posting updates in a thread where fellows draw more attention to their own opinons and thus tear down the community than they do to a growing and developing Age that hopefully inspires it.

When ever anyone posts screen shots, movies, anything at all, you will have people that will praise, be a critique or just comment. You'll have to be ready for any of this. As you re-read through this thread, you will see that you Age has received nothing but praise from everyone over here, to other forums such as UO, MOUL, and Maintainers.

It is certainly your right to not post, publish or share in any way, shape or form, any Age or creation you make, if that is you decision.
Not sharing something wonderful that you have created would be a blow to the community IMO, but again, it is your right. Signing up here at the forum, or downloading the tools in no way obligates you to share your creations, even after they are done.

If you ever get to the point where you actually want other eyes taking a good look at what you made, that is entirely up to you. Many of the Writers here share their Ages, even if they are "work in progress" to gage reactions, get opinions and so on. Loading up an Age in Uru and being there allows people to see much more of it than any screen shot or movie shot can ever convey. But again, if you're not planing on ever sharing it, then, yes, there wouldn't be much point in doing that, unless you had a "private" viewing.

If you are going to be mad and "disgusted" by the hijacking of your thread on a subject that you find upsetting, then look to those that started that subject in the first place. That would be you I afraid. You hijacked your own thread with your quote in which you said it would be impossible for any individual to create an Age that is "complete, interesting and engaging" to the Uru/MOUL community. You opened a can of worms there I'm afraid.

Again, while you have the right to your ideas, thoughts and opinions, please realize D'eux that if you are going to post them here, where ever you post them, you'll have people respond to them. Pappou did as you can see, and his statements opened yet another virtual can of worms. But again, you opened the subject for discussion by your statment that only a concentrated group can make "complete, interesting, and engaging" Ages. People here, that are 90% individual Age creators (including yourself at the moment) will take exceptions to statements like yours and what Pappou said.

I'm not saying that the argument is all your fault. However, you might want to realize that making statements like yours can make others very, VERY "touchy" for a multitude of reasons, so expect people to post replies to them.

I myself didn't care very much for you statement, but I refrained from posting a reply to it at that point. But after Pappou's post, I simply felt that I had to post my own views and opinions on the abilities of the "individual" Writer.

Others may have been a bit more harsh in their words, I apologize for that, even though I have no control over what they say here. However, again please realize that some feel that your words detract from some very hard work that they themselves have put in to their own Ages.

In another argument in another thread several weeks ago, you yourself agreed that no one should stomp off here in anger. Never again posting screen shots of anything you create or further updates of Eh'ko would seem to be doing the same thing to me.