Guild of Writers

A Small Essay on What D'eux wrote:

“As the GoW, if we don't start making a concerted effort to pool our resources into common projects (like the MOUL Nexus) and build unified development teams like Cyan's, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever get good enough Ages written for the community to explore.”

This had been the purpose of GoW for some time before i came to sit on its sidelines, last Fall. So, it serves as a measure of progress (or lack of it, whichever) when D'eux offers his observation. With D'eux's well demonstrated abilities in representation and the use of Blender, GoW members will pay attention to his comments.

Aloys' 'Ahra Pahts' is a grand step in that direction. I take D'eux's observation to imply that it is still just that – one step. The 'grand step' requires the equally grand organization to continue those steps. Question is, Are we any closer to the Grand Organization, one which is a 'pooling of our resources' into a concentrated effort?

The measure of that 'pooling' effort would seem to say that there is a wealth of individual projects on the boards, but very little concentration. We could represent our climb to the noble goal by setting up a progress thermometer in the Entry Hall. Or, we could use two thermometers: A red one on the left, and a green on the right. The red one measures accumulation of all community egos, and the green one measures progress toward a concentrated effort – the effort of building the real Age. [Of course, you only need the green one, for they both act as a single measure; but it helps to drive home the reality that as the red one rises, the green one falls; and vice versa.]

The present reading in the Entry Hall would show that the red one is no longer at its peak, but it is still high; therefore, the green one is oppositely low, but rising – oh so slowly.

We have here a graphic analysis of what i think D'eaux was saying. What is not stated in the Entry Hall exhibit is that while right now, the accumulation of individual egos [represented by all the individual projects under construction] may indeed be inhibiting the progress toward building 'an Age', perhaps all this individualism is a necessary learning experience. Perhaps it is necessary for this testing of the waters by all these individual egos. Perhaps, so much is needed for discovering the impossibility of creating an Age by one's self – for actually finding out more precisely how truly complicated is the chosen task.

I hope so, and i think so. But if this is correct, then D'eux's comment is suggesting that our present pace is very slow. In D'eux's world, progress is not afforded the luxury of Time. Everything must be done yesterday. If not, then you don't have enough clients pressing to get things done [yesterday]; and if there is not that pressure, then the rent is not being paid.

That is the world of monetary reward. Our world, here at GoW, is merely a world glued together by our curiosity, our love for the game, and our good intentions to come together in a concentrated effort. In this world, our slowness may be due to our waiting for the really strong leader to emerge.

Meanwhile, it can only help that we be working to keep down the pathogen of egotism and thereby raise the prospects for a beautiful concert of applied talents – a wonderful force to be guided toward writing 'The Age' -- by someone.

Deleted by me.

This post doesn't further age writing. Sorry.

Hm, indeed.

The difference between us and Cyan is that Cyan went into their projects with people of (generally) equal talents, *knowing* that they were going to work as a team.

the GoW is full of very talented individuals, but make no mistake, we all have different levels of talent. Some Writers will be better than others. Thats just how it is, whether from natural ability or seniority.

Doing group efforts may sound like a good idea in theory, but not in practice.

For example, say a team of...oh, say 5 or so writers gets together. Two are extremely talented and or have been Age building for much longer than the other three. Well see, now there's the potential for two Writers to "take over" an age because the other three either don't feel/are talented enough to hold their own. Thus the group implodes, in-fighting starts and there goes the neighborhood.

Of course, this *might* not happen with some groups, but it is bound to happen more often than not.

And that scenario doesn't even cover lazy-ness, ill-ness, personal schedules (which can be a huge obstacle in of themselves), and of course "You're doing it wrong" syndrome.

I have nothing against group projects, not at all. But I believe trying to force Writers into group projects would be a catastrophe. Groups will form or they won't. Trying to guilt us into forming groups with "thermometers" that gauge our "egos" just because we enjoy working alone is most certainly not the solution.

Of course, having a nice paycheck as incentive to work together as a group doesn't hurt at all. Thats another thing Cyan has that we don't

~Kia

After rereading my post I notice that I didn't say this, and I need to:

I am in no way saying that because of the uncertainty of Uru's future should we not engage in group projects. The more we write, alone or in a group, the better we get, and the more prepared we are when Cyan is ready to give us the keys so to speak. Ahra Pahts has a permanent slot on my bookshelf. I hope to see more and more added onto it. I just don't envy Aloys the headache that will ensure when he has to convert the age over to what ever new system Cyan comes up with.

I agree with Kierra in that part of my fear in joining in one of the larger projects is that I won't be able to keep up and I'll let the team down. So at the moment, I've been trying to prove to myself that I can effectively write an age.

I had decided to not comment past a point in this thread, but now I've simply have to ask some questions and point a few of my own observations out.

---The red one measures accumulation of all community egos, and the green one measures progress toward a concentrated effort – the effort of building the real Age.---

---What is not stated in the Entry Hall exhibit is that while right now, the accumulation of individual egos [represented by all the individual projects under construction] may indeed be inhibiting the progress toward building 'an Age'---

---Perhaps, so much is needed for discovering the impossibility of creating an Age by one's self

by Pappou.

Exactly how are you defining the word "Age" ?
Are you implying that any creation of a virtual 3D world by anyone can not be defined as an Age if it contains any flaws at all?
If you are indeed implying that, then, by your own logic, you must now declare all the places that Cyan made for us to explore in their games "non-Ages" as they do contain flaws. They contain seams in meshes that are not quite shut. They contain UV mapped faces here and there, that are slightly not aligned with the rest of the map. They contain conflict in both story and the graphics that we see here and there.

If that is not how you are defining an "Age", then are you implying that anything made by individuals can not be an "Age", that only a group effort can be truly called an "Age"?

---Aloys' 'Ahra Pahts' is a grand step in that direction. I take D'eux's observation to imply that it is still just that – one step. The 'grand step' requires the equally grand organization to continue those steps. Question is, Are we any closer to the Grand Organization, one which is a 'pooling of our resources' into a concentrated effort?---

---But if this is correct, then D'eux's comment is suggesting that our present pace is very slow.---

---Our world, here at GoW, is merely a world glued together by our curiosity, our love for the game, and our good intentions to come together in a concentrated effort. In this world, our slowness may be due to our waiting for the really strong leader to emerge.---

by Pappou

The GoW has no charter, no real mission statement, no rule that says that the ultimate goal is to become one group that creates Ages, or Ages that are build by the entire guild. The goal of this Guild and Forum, if you ask the opinions of it's tool developers, is to provide a place to pool resources, tips, tutorials, advice, and knowledge of all kind into a working forum for people that want to learn Age Creation.
The idea of a large group of people coming together here in this Guild to build some really outstanding Ages, is a very lofty one, but one that I can understand. However, there are many, many problems with a group like that existing at all.

Distance and Time: Many members here live all around the globe. Not working in the same lab together. Communications can be hit or miss many more times than not.
Any team like this formed would have to have team leaders of each area of Age Creation: Mesh Building, Texture creation and Application, Sound Engineering, Script Programming and Application, and finally Quality Assurance.
Now......who is going to be those leaders? And who is going to follow them?
If you have been sitting on the side lines since last fall, then you should already know what the response is to the idea of any kind of authority over here: bad.
Many of the members here were up in arms over even a Guild Structure of any kind.
Is that "egotism"? No. People here don't think they are too good to have someone else tell them what to do.
They just don't want to have people telling them what to do!

Does this mean that there can never be a group of people that create Ages? No. Not at all. But you have to have people that are willing to jump up and go: "I'm planning on creating the world's greatest Age ever made by fans! Who's with me?" and then we'll see how it goes from there.

Many of your statements imply that those individuals who are working on their own Ages, by themselves are suffering from egotism.

That's not going to win you many friends, or make people want to listen to you here on this forum. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact.

Many people here are individuals in Age Creation for a multitude of reasons:
Real Life does not afford time for them to belong to a more concentrated group.

They are still learning how to do things. And in fact, this learning never, NEVER stops as the Tool Dev team improves or changes the GoW Plugin, even "veteran" Writers have to learn new things, or relearn how to do old things.

Many have their own dream. A dream that drove them to here and to keep learning how to do this, even with the difficulty of doing it. A dream to create something and say: "Wow, look what I made!"
If a person that does this can be called "suffering from egotism" then we all are, as we are all following our dreams. Not too many people want to simply set aside their dream to simply satisfy a group.

---The measure of that 'pooling' effort would seem to say that there is a wealth of individual projects on the boards, but very little concentration.---

by Pappou

I hope you mean "Group Concentration", anything else can be seen as insulting. I spend an average of 8 hours a day working on Zephyr Cove. There have been days that the amount of time was as high as 15 hours. And days that it was 0 because of Real Life and it's priorities.
The time I spend working, varies on what part I'm working on: meshes, textures, lighting, sound, scripting.......
I would hope that you are not saying that I'm not concentrating on my Age that I'm building.....

---Which does raise a thought about writing sizable and quality Ages for potential use in a new MOUL/UU environment, and that is that quite frankly it's going to be nigh on impossible for individuals to write complete, interesting and engaging Ages on their own. As the GoW, if we don't start making a concerted effort to pool our resources into common projects (like the MOUL Nexus) and build unified development teams like Cyan's, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever get good enough Ages written for the community to explore.---

by D'eux

I had decided to refrain from responding to this statement in this thread. But after Pappou's post, I felt that I had to say something here:
D'eux is certainly entitled to his opinion, thoughts and beliefs. Just as we all are.

My own opinion, thought and belief is 180 from his:
"I DO believe that individuals can write sizable and quality Ages for potention use in a new MOUL/UU enviorment. It simply takes time, dedication and knowledge learned. With more and more experience under ones belt, an individual can do a great many things, including this, even with the present tools we have."

While D'eux may feel that it is impossible for individuals to writer complete (whatever that means), interesting and engaging Ages on their own, I would have to say that the evidence located over at the Maintainers Forum would go against this statement.
If one cares to bebop over to our forum and read through the inspection threads, you'll find that there are many, many compliments given on Ages that are put out. Even my own first two attempts were greeted with open arms, and by enthusiasm from people of the MOUL community.
My only hope is that I can continue to provide them with interesting places to explore and experience, giving them much entertainment.
I do believe that many of our Ages leave a lot to be desired in different aspects and people will look at some of them and think:
One has a lot of places to explore...but was textured poorly.
One looks outstanding given the tools, but there's not a lot to do there.
Etc, etc.

So that's from me, my thoughts on these subjects, and my questions too.

Egotism drives us all ... its a good thing ... if you have no ego, you have no self worth ... and that does not drive anything forward.

I just wish that the people who "comment" on Age creaton would do so with experience ... the experience of actually releasing an Age to the Uru community.

There seems to be a lot of "talk" from people with no "action".., put your money where your mouth is ... and maybe I will give you credence.

But that's just my opinion ...

Like Andy, I'm getting a bit fed up of being criticised by people with no actual experience of being critique'd by the community.

G o W Age creation is in its infancy ... and it needs to be nurtured, not "brow beaten"

Support is nice ... but I don't expect it... and I value the opinion of another Age producer* more than anyone else's ..

*producer does not include screen shots or teaser trailers ... it means someone with the balls to actually release their work to the community

Meanwhile, it can only help that we be working to keep down the pathogen of egotism and thereby raise the prospects for a beautiful concert of applied talents – a wonderful force to be guided toward writing 'The Age' -- by someone.

... this is not only crass, but rude (IMHO) ...

as is this...

quite frankly it's going to be nigh on impossible for individuals to write complete, interesting and engaging Ages on their own

Poor De'ux, it seems your topic is prone to hijacking

~Kia

Kierra wrote:Poor De'ux, it seems your topic is prone to hijacking

~Kia

well, maybe there's a good reason for that ...

...uh, can we talk about Reboot again?

Actually, can we talk about Eh'ko again? Looking forward to more screen shots.

Robert The Rebuilder wrote:... can we talk about Eh'ko again? Looking forward to more screen shots.

Looking forward to a release ...