Ramblings from a Noob +1

[bnewton81]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but here it goes anyway. I wouldn't put all my eggs in the PyPRP basket. I have a feeling that it will be slow going for the new PyPRP2. Not just that, but Plasma is becoming more and more antiquated with each passing year. Also engines like UDK, SDK, Unity and others are becoming more powerful and easier to use. I'm not saying quit using Plasma by any means, but I am devoting a small number of my limited brain cells to learning UDK. Just my preference in game engines. I don't think this is a failure on anyone's part. Please don't take it that way. I'm just saying that the limitations plasma presents are becoming more and more evident as we become more acclimated to new games and their abilities. You know things like bump mapping or parallax bump mapping and such.

I doubt that learning udk or any game engine is going to be any easier than learning PyPRP in fact I'm sure it will be harder as there are many more options. I just think that if we as a group aren't willing to move forward this community will simply die out one day. I may be talking out my a$$ completely here and don't even realize that there is a whole section of the forum for ppl that are using other game engines or something.

Don't put too much weight on my opinion. It is true that I'm not a noob exactly to age building, but I'm in no way in a league with the likes of Andy Legit, or tach.

[Chuckles58]

BNewton81, I will not flame you as I haven't even learned the first things about using Blender to create content for Uru. I do have serious intentions to, as I have ideas for a new age that I would like to build.

You are correct about the limitations of this platform, but as Calena's recent age (with great team efforts) demostrates, there is still a lot of life left in making ages for Uru. It appears that those still engaged in the Open Source project are making strides in developing improvements to the game.

It is true that the community has continued to contract, but those of us still here would like it to be around for ages.

[Calena]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but here it goes anyway.

This is my rambling thread and I'm against flaming . Thoughtful second opinions are always welcome. Okay, that isn't true, but most of the time I welcome them.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the PyPRP basket. I have a feeling that it will be slow going for the new PyPRP2. Not just that, but Plasma is becoming more and more antiquated with each passing year. Also engines like UDK, SDK, Unity and others are becoming more powerful and easier to use. I'm not saying quit using Plasma by any means, but I am devoting a small number of my limited brain cells to learning UDK. Just my preference in game engines. I don't think this is a failure on anyone's part. Please don't take it that way. I'm just saying that the limitations plasma presents are becoming more and more evident as we become more acclimated to new games and their abilities. You know things like bump mapping or parallax bump mapping and such.

What you say has merit, but it also highlights our problem. We're tech geeks and we're placing far too much reliance on the tech and not enough on individual creativity. My concept artist is about as non-techie as they get. He has a different point of view. He's also a die-hard gamer in the giant Nintendo universe and owns stacks and stacks of video games going back a couple of decades. He knows video games. He knows what works, what will last and what will be a big hit then die a quick death. He did a quick run-through of the top level of Motorstorm Apocalypse for me where the tornado not only breaks up the entire world, an ocean liner flies through the air and breaks into a thousand pieces on the road (which is also breaking apart). He had to dig it out of the junk heap to show it to me. It's in the junk heap because games that rely on high tech graphics are great for a short time, then they're boring. Been there, done that, seen that. He doesn't like shooter games because all you do is shoot. Per him, he'd be thrilled if there was at least a hot-dog stand where he could order a hot dog and do something different.

He also understands why certain games last and what causes people to go back to those games again and again and again. We have discussed the different game engines and to tell the truth, we chose to stick with the one I've already learned something about because we're both so new to this. It had nothing to do with loyalty to any gaming community or game engine. It simply made more sense in our particular situation at this particular time. He keeps asking me what all we can do with this particular set of tools. Every time I say it can do this, he comes up with a new and creative way of using that particular tool. From his very non-techie but die-hard artist/gamer point of view, we have everything we need to build a phenomenal video game with the tools this community has provided us.

We've also discussed the fact that we don't know if we'll ever be able to post our age online, given the current circumstances. That's fine with us. We're doing this because we enjoy doing it. If we get to share it online, great. If not, we can give it away for Christmas presents to our friends next year .

I doubt that learning udk or any game engine is going to be any easier than learning PyPRP in fact I'm sure it will be harder as there are many more options. I just think that if we as a group aren't willing to move forward this community will simply die out one day. I may be talking out my a$$ completely here and don't even realize that there is a whole section of the forum for ppl that are using other game engines or something.

Don't put too much weight on my opinion. It is true that I'm not a noob exactly to age building, but I'm in no way in a league with the likes of Andy Legit, or tach.

I don't get the reference to Andy or tach or why you think your opinion should matter less than theirs. I even agree with you. I already have my copy of 3dsMax, along with the big instruction book and the Valve SDK. I'm simply not choosing to use them at this time. Will I use them sometime in the future? Only God knows. I leave the future in His hands and focus on what's in front of me right now. That's about all I can handle and some days, even that's too much for me.

[Jojon]

One might also keep in mind the number of people complaining about Valve software sticking to their "antiquated" Source engine. :P

Sure; Plasma hasn't seen the same amount of updates as Source, but the situation is strikingly similar, with components, sometimes key components, being switched out and incompatible files.

Heck, to me, personally; working with PyPRP, all in one tool (Blender), feels like a breeze, compared to the clunky Hammer and its companion programs.

It seems to me that working with Valve's (current - new tool are on the way, supposedly) SDK, is perfectly ok and easy as long as you are only using existing assets -- once you get around to adding custom material. you have to start jumping between applications and editing text files.


Incidently we supposedly do have normal maps (...which some may argue have been superceded, along with parallax :P) in Plasma, although I have never been able to get it to work as expected.
As far as I can see (working with PrpShop), I have had the material set up exactly as the ones in Gira, but while I do see slightly different lighting across the map, it's not enough. Still wondering what I may be missing. :)

[andylegate]

Sorry for the intrusion, people keep emailing me links to here or other forums whenever my name is mentioned..... not too sure why....

Bumps maps in Plasma are available, and pretty easy to use, if you are using the plugin for Max. the Plasma Docs that Chogon released along with the original plugin, while not too detailed on the subject, do show you how to use it. I've never gotten it to work with Blender and the old PyPRP plugin (but that only means I don't know how to do it that way).

One might also keep in mind the number of people complaining about Valve software sticking to their "antiquated" Source engine.

Sure; Plasma hasn't seen the same amount of updates as Source, but the situation is strikingly similar, with components, sometimes key components, being switched out and incompatible files.

Heck, to me, personally; working with PyPRP, all in one tool (Blender), feels like a breeze, compared to the clunky Hammer and its companion programs.

It seems to me that working with Valve's (current - new tool are on the way, supposedly) SDK, is perfectly ok and easy as long as you are only using existing assets -- once you get around to adding custom material. you have to start jumping between applications and editing text files.


Incidently we supposedly do have normal maps (...which some may argue have been superceded, along with parallax ) in Plasma, although I have never been able to get it to work as expected.
As far as I can see (working with PrpShop), I have had the material set up exactly as the ones in Gira, but while I do see slightly different lighting across the map, it's not enough. Still wondering what I may be missing.

You can make new assets to use in the Hammer Editor just fine: Make it in Blender or Max, export as .obj file. Import into XSI Mod Tool 6.0 (free from Autodesk), and then export it to the Hammer Editor using the plugin that comes with it for Valve's Hammer Editor. Keep in mind however, Source is a BSP brush based engine. Almost all of your terrain and buildings you make using BSP brushes in Hammer. Static meshes that you make in Blender / Max are for smaller models (deco stuff). Yes, you can use their assets, but you are not limited to them. You can make your very own textures too, but they use a special format.
But you use, using the Hammer Editor, you are making maps for specific games by Valve: Team Fortress 2, Half-Life 2, Left 4 Dead, Portal. Not making your own game.

UDK and CryEngine on the other hand, while you can use them to make things for existing games made by Unreal and CryTek, what both of those are for, like Unity, is to create your very own game. And no, it doesn't have to be a "Shooter" one either.

One of the main differences between UDK and CryEngine compared to Plasma, is the lighting system. Both UDK and CryEngine use something that Unreal calls "Lightmass", where as Plasma uses what is now called by most people out there "Legacy Lighting" (meaning "the old way", heheh). What really impressed me with the newer system was how you can use a model with a texture as an actual light! The old way, you have the model there, but will need to put in a light source too:

Neolbah's basement in Plasma:


Neolbah's basement in UDK:


Lightmass makes it to where outside scenes really only need one light (the sun), and it is able to light up everything, calculate correct shadow placement, bounce and scatter:

Serene in Plasma:


Serene in CryEngine:


What is important though is that you, the Artist, Content Creator, game designer, work with what it is you like to work in, what makes you feel more at ease, etc. If Plasma is where you feel at home, then by all means, please, do your work in Plasma and support the community here. If your interest lay elsewhere, then again, go to where you feel is better for you to work in.

If Plasma were to ever be upgraded with it's graphics, including a system like Lightmass, I would most likely come back to Plasma in a heartbeat. But that would be a huge change to the engine. And with the devs here on the small side, over worked, and all of them have limited time, don't expect changes like that any time soon.

Bottom line however is: work where you feel at ease and have fun with. After all, you don't want the work to actually be like "Work"! hehehehe, it's suppose to be fun instead.

BTW - it's Andy Legate, hehehehe.
Oh! and PS - I wouldn't put me up on a shrine like that. I've not put anything new out in a very long time, and I only know as much as I do simply from time of working on things is all.

[GPNMilano]

Also, I'd like to point out, that while the other engines out there are newer and have more options available, Plasma, as Andy noted, can be updated if we had more devs that were both willing to work on it, and able to work on it. The devs we currently have are stretched thin with being able to work on it. Most of them are full time students and tickering with Plasma is just a hobby, and many of them have lost interest in said hobby. This is no slight against them, and I'm sure they'd welcome more help if it were to pop up.

Also, while I'd like to point out that as can be seen from the screenshots, the other engines make our ages look really nice. As you can see from the Plasma screenshots, they're really not the same place anyway, so comparing them side by side isn't really all that fair of a comparison. It's clear from those screenshots that Nelobah and Serene for the UnReal and CryTek engines went through upgrades not only in texturing but modeling as well. So it's a comparison of not just their lighting but other aspects of the ages that makes the Plasma versions look dull and outdated. If they ages were to get a similar update in their Plasma versions they'd look fairly good as well. And it is possible to make them look like that in Plasma, it just takes a little more time and effort as the lighting system in Plasma needs to be updated, however it's not impossible to get that same look with the Plasma engine, it's just you'd have to manually light it rather than let lightmass do the work for you.

[andylegate]

Actually, in the 2 Neolbah shots, the only models that are different are the light fixtures. I did change the textures of the walls in the first room, and the pipes that go down the length of the tunnel, but the rest is the same as my Max file for Plasma (oh! Also everything is scaled up by a factor of 16. Unreal's engine uses a different scale).
However, the major thing that is different (beside the fact the material editor gives you much more control over how to apply the textures), is that the Neolbah in Plasma, I had to use light sources for lighting. The Unreal Neolbah contains no actual lights. Instead, I'm using a method to light here that is really, really cool: the light fixture models themselves are the light source!
UDK allows you to use emissive textures as an actual light source. So your model of a lamp, is REALLY a lamp! How cool is that?

In Serene, yes, some of the models are different: The terrain, trees and bushes. But the rest are the same. Even have the same textures, including the snow for the terrain. The trees on the other hand are from Speed Tree, and the bushes: wait here comes the cool part....
Are painted on to the terrain! Better yet, when the player walks through them? They bend, and snap back like in real life. It's just too cool.

Anyways, enough gushing by me.

Yes, if one is takes a lot of time and work, you more than likely can achieve the same look of the Neolbah basement that I have in Unreal as in Plasma. My point is that in Unreal, it took me less than a day, so I could concentrate on more difficult tasks.
However the outside scene of Serene? Mmmmm.......I've yet to see anything that is real time rendered in Plasma to look like this:



Or like this:



Not saying it's completely impossible. But I would love to see it done in Plasma, as I think that would be cool.

[bnewton81]

Andy's a damn show off. Those are beautiful!! is that in game? What engine?

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of using Plasma. I'm just saying that I don't think that anyone in the near future is going to make a new Myst game. I see all the talent here in the GoW and I think it is probably the best chance Myst has of ever seeing a completely new game. Know what I mean? I can't see any large game dev co.'s picking up a game like Myst. (and when I say myst I mean all the series as a whole) If there is ever going to be a new Myst title it will be done by ppl like us, and it will probably be done in UDK or Unity. So, why not get a jump on it and glance at the programs and their perspective learning guides when you have a chance.

I will continue to create for Plasma for a good while to come (not that I've ever released anything for public viewing). But I will be learning what's out there and how to use it. It really makes me sad that children will not have the experience of Myst like I did. I want to do all that's in my power to try and make it so they will. I'm sure I'm not the only person that filled notepads with Myst, Riven clues.

Anyway, glad I didn't log in tonight to find I no longer had an account.

I had a few other ppl's names on that list of "greats" but I spell for shite and didn't want to butcher their names.

[Calena]

Geez, I've been posting on giant forums for over 12 years and this is the first time I've had a thread hijacked. Even on the forum that was shut down due to irritating some extremely rich and influential people, none of my threads were hijacked. Deleted, yes, but not hijacked. I feel as if I've reached a new milestone in my on-line life .

Back to rambling. My totally non-techie partner has an interesting naming convention for the artwork he's sending me. His first file came to me as follows:

version 1.0 - named "Thisisaroughdraft.png"

version 2.0 - named "Thisisreallyalotoffun.png"

version 3.0 - named "IMGOINGTOBEDNOW.png"

I'm finding this all very amusing. Usually we're talking on the phone as all this is happening. We were on the phone at one point early in the process discussing textures and so forth, and all of a sudden he broke off to say:

"The little man on my screen is falling . . . . . . . . . he's still falling . . . . . . . . . he's still falling! . . . . . . how far is this little man going to fall?"

It never dawned on me to explain that he needs to keep the little man on the ground plane. He hasn't gone into the actual game yet and I'm not certain if he even plans to. He's seen screen prints, but his interest is now in building a game, not playing one. I admit I'm with him on that one. Building is way more fun and it's just gotten a whole lot easier and faster for me. In the past year, the biggest time consumer and challenge for me has been the design and texturing. With that turned over to him, I get to concentrate on building. Much more my cup of tea.

I love the ideas and direction this game is taking. We are not building another Myst. We're building an entirely new game using the Myst genre, e.g. puzzles. As a matter of fact, the puzzle starts immediately on link-in. The idea is when the player links in, they will stand there saying "What the hell?" Then see if they can figure out how to keep going.

One of the more interesting things my son is teaching me is that good games are designed to be impossible to get through in one shot. This age/game is being designed so that the only way to finish it is to keep starting over.

This forum is so quiet I sometimes wonder if I'm talking to myself. I'm not doing that; I'm thinking out loud. Yeah, that sounds much better .

[Chuckles58]

No, you're not alone, Calena. I have been enjoying your ramblings for the past year. You are no longer officially a Noob, however you do have at least one Noob following your work. It sounds like working with your son will be a rewarding experience.

I have yet to begin my age building, but I've got the makings of a wonderful, yet simple age bouncing around in my head. Not sure what it is going to take to get it out of there.

Please, keep up the ramblings.