Questions regarding UAM

General debates and discussion about the Guild of Writers and Age creation

Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby rocketdog » Wed May 03, 2017 7:10 pm

Jaruku and I thought we need to say something about our ages ( Laki’anay, Giloto, Argosy and Cholonay ) which have been mentioned here. It's a shame for us to see that more time has been spent on this forum over a controversy than on players enjoying the ages.

Neither Jaruku or I are involved in or agree with the fighting between the two sides, and it's a shame it had to happen. It's our opinion that rather than bringing up old controversy we should be trying to promote the game by doing what's best for the game. We didn't start out in the UAM to cause any controversy or hard feelings.

Before going to the UAM we asked if we could get our ages on Deep Island and test them before release but were told that the Deep Island shard couldn't prevent others from seeing the ages once they were added to the shard. We then tried to create our own privet test shard without success. One of the people in our group ( Teodori ) contacted Dustin and asked if there was a way we would be able to do our testing in the UAM. Dustin said he would set it up so we could test in private, which he did. He was very helpful in getting the ages tested.

At the time none of us were aware of the UAM allowing people to download Complete Chronicles along with the UAM shard, however, that is a legal issue between Cyan and Dustin, ( a simple Cease and Desist order ) we have no power to change that one way or the other. All of the people involved in our group had legal copies of Complete Chronicles and therefore legally downloaded the UAM shard.

I think I can speak for everyone involved in the making of our four ages that none of us had any intention of causing any problems, our only intention was to let the players have some fun, and we all hope they did.

We hope, with all sincerity, that nothing said here is taken the wrong way, this is just our opinion and explanation of what happened from our point of view.

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Re: Questions regarding UAM and Laki'anay

Postby Theo1728 » Thu May 04, 2017 7:08 pm

Shall I begin near the beginning?
In 2012, things were different:

It was not obvious, looking at the GoW Forum, whether 3DS Max or Blender was better suited to what we wanted to do, and in the end we used both.

It was hard to tell which direction things would progress, or how soon Fan-Created Art would be added to MOULa. If this happened soon enough, maybe we would find ourselves dealing directly with Cyan.

The GoW didn't seem especially friendly at that time, and Cavern social relationships were a bit difficult to keep track of, so we chose to keep our project a secret until we had something we were ready to publish. Maybe this was unjustified, but this is how some of our people felt, and arguing with people about how they feel, or should feel, is usually pointless.

Sometimes that's what it takes for artistic minds to manifest their best work freely, privacy assured by a commitment to secrecy.

That meant no discussions of the project in the Cavern or other of its related forums, and no revelations of it to outsiders except to those we had already chosen, as a group, to try to recruit to join us.

Eventually, we reached an apparent limit to what we could test in Drizzle. It was time to set up a private shard for multi-player testing. Our efforts failed. As far as I am concerned, we had one of the best minds available on the job for over a year, and he failed to produce a working Client-Server Multi-Player Shard system that would simultaneously support Ages that had been created in both 3DS Max and Blender.

One of our group actually suggested that we do our multi-player testing in Uru: Deep Island, which was thought way too public for the tastes of many in out team, and not only by me. Fortunately, I had learned that Dustbird's UAM shard was still running, though he had announced his retirement in 2013. I convinced the group to wait, contacted Dusty and obtained his agreement to provide a test environment on the UAM shard that would only be visible and accessible to our group. We would have access to our concealed test environment for as long as we needed it. This was not Dusty's attempted comeback for personal glory, but his kind and generous support in response to my request. We didn't choose UAM shard in an attempt to play Uru:CC in a free download. Indeed, I think that most or all of our members own those disks already. Our choice was based on privacy and security, and our desire to keep our work concealed from public view until we felt we were ready to reveal it.

Our work is now available for you to explore in both UAM shard and Uru: Deep Island. Removing it from UAM shard, in light of various copyright issues, is presently under discussion. I hope you enjoy our work.

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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Annabelle » Sat May 06, 2017 2:27 pm

Well, let me give you the point of view of an explorer on this issue!

I don't do politics and I don't like when people talk for a private corporation over a controversy that is none of their business! If Cyan has issues with one party or the other, they have legal way to deal with them. That's it!

For an explorer, like myself, I feel comfortable to visit any shard available to me. I don't like to be put in a category: "if you visit that specific shard, you implicitly encourage piracy!" sort-of-speech! That's a non-sense! I own every Cyan's product to get the full-house extension: Myst URU CC (twice! CD and GOG versions!!!), Myst V EOA, Cosmo Cosmic's Hex Isles, Crowthistle Tales bought with the Well of Tears Book, and a subscription to MagiQuest (that's now defunct) that allowed me to download all that content at the time.

Now if someone does, well that's their thing! I'm responsible for my own backyard, it's clean! :lol:

If a fan age is way more stable in Shard A than in shard B? Where do you think people will go? Shard A! It's simple logic. I can attest that the specific age I'm referring to and the specific shards I'm also referring to are really behaving like that.

And also, I really dislike all the comments directly toward the "mental stability" of the infamous shard owner! It's easy to backstab someone who's not able to respond! It's really "petit !" which isn't sounding good in French idiomatic book ;)

And to end my rant: let the age writers alone! Don't put them in jeopardy: "choose your shards well or else perish!". It puts them in a bad position. Sometimes, it's not even their own choice! Their ages are published in a given shard. Explorers asked for those ages to be put there for stability issues. Explorers' first concern is: "Am I gonna be able to pass through that first gate and enjoy the age or am I gonna end up in yet another stackdump!"
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Doobes » Sat May 06, 2017 6:07 pm

Annabelle wrote:I don't do politics and I don't like when people talk for a private corporation over a controversy that is none of their business! If Cyan has issues with one party or the other, they have legal way to deal with them. That's it!


It's well-known that Cyan has neither the time nor the personnel to tackle every single copyright infringement that comes up. We as a community need to be somewhat responsible.

Annabelle wrote:For an explorer, like myself, I feel comfortable to visit any shard available to me. I don't like to be put in a category: "if you visit that specific shard, you implicitly encourage piracy!" sort-of-speech! That's a non-sense! I own every Cyan's product to get the full-house extension: Myst URU CC (twice! CD and GOG versions!!!), Myst V EOA, Cosmo Cosmic's Hex Isles, Crowthistle Tales bought with the Well of Tears Book, and a subscription to MagiQuest (that's now defunct) that allowed me to download all that content at the time.


That's great that you paid for your games...multiple times even. That's what should be encouraged. However, someone offering them up for free means others can just take them at any time without paying (and thus keep much-needed funds out of Cyan's hands). Just because you've already paid for the content doesn't mean someone else should get it for free while it's still for sale.

Annabelle wrote:Now if someone does, well that's their thing! I'm responsible for my own backyard, it's clean! :lol:


If you respect the company that brought you this wonderful content, piracy of their intellectual property should not be condoned in any way, even through apathy.

Annabelle wrote:If a fan age is way more stable in Shard A than in shard B? Where do you think people will go? Shard A! It's simple logic. I can attest that the specific age I'm referring to and the specific shards I'm also referring to are really behaving like that.


If the shard's practices are dubious, whether things "work better" on it is irrelevant, IMHO. Support the legit shards that follow the (admittedly strict) rules put into place. Playtest them, troubleshoot them, report any glitches, and contribute to making open source URU better in the process.

Annabelle wrote:And also, I really dislike all the comments directly toward the "mental stability" of the infamous shard owner! It's easy to backstab someone who's not able to respond! It's really "petit !" which isn't sounding good in French idiomatic book ;)


While I cannot comment on what went on with Dustin and others (I wasn't there for it), I am sure he is free to comment if he so chooses. So far, he has chosen to stay silent in retirement (which is his right), although he continues to run the UAM shard for some reason...soooo...semi-retired?

Annabelle wrote:And to end my rant: let the age writers alone! Don't put them in jeopardy: "choose your shards well or else perish!". It puts them in a bad position. Sometimes, it's not even their own choice! Their ages are published in a given shard. Explorers asked for those ages to be put there for stability issues. Explorers' first concern is: "Am I gonna be able to pass through that first gate and enjoy the age or am I gonna end up in yet another stackdump!"


As I said to Dulcamara, I am quite sure none of the Age builders who submitted their work were privy to all the details and nobody is blaming them. In fact, I applaud them for looking into it after what's been said in this thread instead of just shrugging and going "Eh...what's done is done."

The whole point of open source is to keep trying to fix these bugs that are causing the dreaded stack dumps. We can't do that if everyone just takes the "easy" option, particularly one that offers up illegal downloads of copyrighted software.

As you know, I respect you greatly Annabelle, but brushing this off is not the way to go in this instance. We can't turn a blind eye when the situation is so clearly in the wrong.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Korovev » Sun May 07, 2017 1:42 am

Annabelle wrote:I don't like to be put in a category: "if you visit that specific shard, you implicitly encourage piracy!" sort-of-speech!

I suppose I should have kept silent on the issue, maybe even applaud people who promote the UAM shard. Sounds familiar. How disappointing.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Sirius » Sun May 07, 2017 4:20 am

I'm tired of repeating what's already been said multiple times on this topic.
You know what ? Let's keep it short: you can all keep navel-gazing about people's rights to use UAM all you want, but that's just wasting everyone's time.

You want to keep using UAM ? Fine, just stop bothering everyone with your rants.

You want to help dealing with UAM ? Fine. Various Age authors kindly exposed their reasons for using UAM Shard at the risk of being insulted by people here. We also know why people prefer playing Ages on UAM. That's all we need to know. Spread the word so people are aware about the UAM issue (without being aggressive, for once). Or make a tutorial to help people set up their own test Shard. Or make your own Shard, or come up with new ideas, or something.

But attacking each other won't help at all.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Korovev » Sun May 07, 2017 5:13 am

Sirius wrote:Spread the word so people are aware about the UAM issue (without being aggressive, for once).

We did, they know, and they don’t give a damn, as proven by this very thread.

https://www.facebook.com/shares/view?id ... 9775640360
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby TrapperDave » Sun May 07, 2017 9:04 am

Korovev wrote: We did, they know, and they don’t give a damn, as proven by this very thread.

Ohh yes we do care, but have many questions now that the subject came up?

This whole debate is better left alone!
It seems like political maneuvers and a debate. It seems to me that Cyan is leaving it alone. I have seen no documents or statements by or from Cyan that they have sanctioned any particular shard over another shard.
Has Cyan stated that Deep Island is their official shard and they are behind it 100% only vs. other shards ?
I think some are self proclaiming that they are official representatives and sanctioned by Cyan ?
This has brought up many questions for me?

Doobes wrote:
I ask you to reconsider the party until the Age is hosted on Deep Island, or better yet, on a MOUL-based shard like Gehn, The Open Cave or Minkata. The latter path may take longer, but it's more in the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish...and it won't potentially raise the ire of Cyan's legal department.


Is Gehn shard sanctioned by Cyan ?
Is TOC shard sanctioned by Cyan? (this is an eye opener)
Is Deep Island sanctioned by Cyan?
Is Minkata shard sanctioned by Cyan, although it's a test shard for open source for suggestions to Cyan ?
Is the GoW the official organization that has the "ins" with Cyan and the official representatives with Cyan ?
I could answer "NO" to all of the above to the best of my knowledge.
Maybe I need enlightened as to Cyan's cooperation with certain people, I know all have a desire to do so.

I appreciate everybody's hard work and efforts for all shards. And more specifically the fan age writers!
These fan age writers ( too many to name) have done some marvelous work !
That is why fans like me wanted to hold an event there and enjoy it with appreciation.
But I really think no one person or guild club is the sole representative for Cyan?
I think all parties are trying to work with Cyan.
But I also feel that no particular group or person is official with Cyan ?
I have never seen documentation where Cyan has declared a certain few fans their official representatives.

Cyan has always been agreeable and easy to work with from what I've encountered with all people equally.
The hard work of the fan age writers are to be complimented as individuals donating their own precious time !
All the age writers are to be praised and complimented !
I also appreciate the Gow for the work they do, but do not think they are the chiefs running the tribe with Cyan's backing. I think the GoW is striving to be the leader in this direction with Cyan.
When it comes down to it Cyan will do as they choose to do, they are the creators and the owners.

So if and when Cyan is ready they will take appropriate action for the direction they wish to go.
All have contributed improvements to the game through open source and submissions to Cyan for build improvements.
Note: Some I did not agree with, not for the best in my opinion.
We are working with an old outdated engine. I think Cyan is moving on to the future myself.
Cyan is just trying to accommodate all of us old fans for a historic game that is basically history.
The best thing I could see is if the old Myst games were reconstructed to a new modern engine.
Then I can see where Cyan would move forward with new content in a heart beat.
Tearing at each others throats gets us no where. If we all got along things will flow and the many fan age
writers out there will give us great pleasure :)
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Korovev » Sun May 07, 2017 10:23 am

TrapperDave wrote:Is Gehn shard sanctioned by Cyan ?
Is TOC shard sanctioned by Cyan? (this is an eye opener)
Is Deep Island sanctioned by Cyan?
Is Minkata shard sanctioned by Cyan, although it's a test shard for open source for suggestions to Cyan ?
Is the GoW the official organization that has the "ins" with Cyan and the official representatives with Cyan ?
I could answer "NO" to all of the above to the best of my knowledge.
Maybe I need enlightened as to Cyan's cooperation with certain people, I know all have a desire to do so.


Minkata and Gehn definitely are.

Promoting parties in fan shard (including TOC) is allowed if not encouraged.

A post I wrote about installing shards on Mac OS X is even stickied.

Randomly mentioning Deep Island does not get threads automatically locked (a random example), as long as it’s only mentioned (counterexample).

In recent years, I remember only one thread about shards completely deleted (save for the OP). Can you guess which one? Sure, there isn’t an explicit declaration of intents by Cyan, but deleting a thread is something they haven’t done in a while.



Annabelle wrote:I don't like to be put in a category: "if you visit that specific shard, you implicitly encourage piracy!" sort-of-speech!

TrapperDave wrote:This whole debate is better left alone!

Knowing you’re playing on a shard that might be damaging Cyan makes you feel unconfortable, so we should drop the debate and shut up? Forget it.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Doobes » Sun May 07, 2017 11:29 am

Sirius wrote:I'm tired of repeating what's already been said multiple times on this topic.


Since some don't seem to be fully understanding the message, it seems necessary to repeat and elaborate a bit more.

Nobody is "attacking" anyone here. I genuinely believe the vast majority who use UAM aren't aware of how potentially harmful it could be to relations with Cyan and the fan community should the former decide to take drastic action. As I said earlier in the thread, we mean to educate on a rather complicated subject.

We should show Cyan that, as a community, we do NOT condone potential theft of their work.
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