Questions regarding UAM

General debates and discussion about the Guild of Writers and Age creation

Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Karkadann » Sun May 07, 2017 12:59 pm

Korovev wrote:I suppose I should have kept silent on the issue, maybe even applaud people who promote the UAM shard. Sounds familiar. How disappointing.


Omerta?? holy fork the Mafia code of silence that breaking is a death sentence?
That's like comparing apples and OJ Simpson!

Show Spoiler

or

lets use this thread to promote Myst on-line and see what kind of new people we attract

Those who know about this feud have been pussy-footing around this topic for a long time those who don't know about this feud are not to blame.
Unless this topic is resolved it will eventually be brought up again. I can't see it being resolved any time soon so do we treat those involved with kid gloves,
and warn those who don't know what kind of drama it produces?
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby TrapperDave » Sun May 07, 2017 1:58 pm

@ Korovev
Korovev wrote: Minkata and Gehn definitely are.

The evidence:
Chogon
Post subject: Fan Run MOULa Based Server List
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Here is a list of MOULa based servers that are run by different fans and fan organizations. The CyanWorlds MOULa server will continue to run and will most likely continue to be the main focus of MOULa. This is to help promote the expanding MOULa universe.

Server/Shard Owners: Only post MOULa based servers here. Please include (at the least) a link to web page that describes how a player can create an account on your server and play. And a short sentence describing what your server is about. And then add as much text as you need to describe your server and help users. I will try to once a week take your link and short sentence and add to this post.
Also, please post events on your server in the Events area on this forum, be sure to include your server name so people know where to go.

Everyone else: Please do not post discussions about any of the servers (fan or otherwise) or any other topic in this thread. Please create a new thread. Thanks.

Warning: CyanWorlds has no control over these fan run servers or shards and cannot guarantee safe or fair service on these servers. In other words, you are on your own. Please contact the individual fan run server site administrator for support. If you would like to notify Cyan Worlds about one of these fan run servers, please contact us by visiting http://support.cyanworlds.com

OpenUru.org's Minkata Shard allows fans to test new features and fixes from the open source development community before they are accepted into Cyan Worlds' official Myst Online: Uru Live again (MOULa) servers.

Guild of Writers' Gehn Shard showcases the latest work done by artists and programmers at the Guild of Writers.

Lyros Shard is an invitation-based shard run by Lyrositor with no special additions planned for now but with the purpose of helping community members, including Lyrositor himself, document MOSS and CWE through direct use of the software used. It also allows the use of Internal clients to connect.


This does not tell me Cyan sanctions these shards , Gehn & Minkata? It is just a list of shards at that point in time?
In fact this was stated:
Warning: CyanWorlds has no control over these fan run servers or shards and cannot guarantee safe or fair service on these servers. In other words, you are on your own. Please contact the individual fan run serve r site administrator for support. If you would like to notify Cyan Worlds about one of these fan run servers, please contact us by visiting http://support.cyanworlds.com

It does not tell me the shards are supported by Cyan. Is this the best evidence you have?
It sounds more like Cyan is saying or more specifically Chogon, that Cyan does not mind helping to promote the expanding MOULa universe. Which means to me any and all shards are welcome by all fans and servers ?
I'm sorry but this does not answer much for me, a post about shards dated 2006. Only that Cyan is aware of their existence.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Korovev » Mon May 08, 2017 12:34 pm

TrapperDave wrote:I'm sorry but this does not answer much for me, a post about shards dated 2006

You asked about which shards are sanctioned, that post gives an answer. Sanctioned ≠ supported. Support is what each respective shard admins do. The post is dated 2012, by the way.

Regarding “Cyan’s cooperation with certain people”, you could e.g. look at a post by Chogon on the OpenUru forum. Cyan is and will be getting client updates, and ultimately Ages, from the Minkata shard. The Minkata shard, in turn, will be getting Ages (at least initially) from the Gehn shard. So the GoW does not represent Cyan, but it’s a pretty important part of the pipeline.

-----

Deep Island is a modification of the offline game and therefore formally against Cyan’s EULA; Cyan have to forbid talking about it on the official forum, for the mere reason that doing that would negate their own EULA. However, the GoW always gives credits to Cyan, and Deep Island is used as a test-bed for the fan Ages, which are ultimately meant to end up in MO:ULa. So Cyan derives nothing but benefits from Deep Island.
This is not an issue with MO:UL shards, for the simple reason that the client is open source, therefore MO:UL shards are legal by default.

The UAM shard allows you to download the offline game files for free. That is piracy, plain and simple. Playing there with a regularly bought copy of the game is irrelevant to the point.

Karkadann wrote:Unless this topic is resolved it will eventually be brought up again. I can't see it being resolved any time soon

There’s a very easy way to resolve it, and it’s not playing there. The majority of those who play on UAM are not aware of how potentially harmful it could be and playing in good faith, I agree. But those who are in fact aware?
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby rocketdog » Tue May 09, 2017 6:31 am

I really had no intention of adding anything more to this post and probably shouldn't but.

As I mentioned in my last post, all it would take for Cyan to stop Dustin is a letter of Cease and Desist. I can't believe Cyan doesn't know that. So is it possible that Cyan is not even interested enough to send that letter to Dustin? My guess is that Cyan is only protecting themselves from Id software and others by not sanctioning or condoning the UAM or any other shard. The money that Cyan is making from Complete Chronicles probably won't buy Rand Miller his morning coffee.

Korovev said here “Shards like Deep Island have a ‘light’ shade of gray: to play, you need to modify the offline game. Cyan cannot officially approve (the EULA forbids it), but you still need to buy a copy of the game from Cyan, so no harm is done; “

What he should have said is “no harm is done to Cyan”. If that software was made or owned in whole or part by anyone other than Cyan (like Id Software) then it is a EULA infringement to use it once it is changed. The court will see Intellectual property infringement without caring about intent. In other words, you cannot infringe on a patent or EULA in any way and call it a little infringement, infringement is infringement there is no size limitation.

There are different shades of gray, but they are all still gray. And that's the way the courts will see them. Just a small statement like “Cyan cannot officially approve (the EULA forbids it),” would be used against the Deep Island group in court to prove they know what they are doing is against the EULA.

I said in my last post I think it is a shame this all had to be, but I believe there is enough blame to go around and I think all of you would do the game a great service if you would get together and work things out. I know Dustin is not the monster he is made out to be in these posts. I believe Dustin and the people in charge of Deep Island are very intelligent people who forgot how to talk to each other, negotiate a settlement and come to an agreement.

This is only my opinion and I am not talking for the other people involved in the “New Age Group”.

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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby TrapperDave » Tue May 09, 2017 8:42 am

How can we turn all this into a positive direction ? This is more politacal than positive.
What have I learned here in this thread ?
I also had no intention the post here ever again, but I hate all the negativity here.

The main goal is to have a server or servers that can load the wonderful work of Fan Age Writers, as Dulcamara, jaruku, rocketdog, Theo1728 have been mentioned here in this thread, and many others not mentioned.

All these Age writers deserve great praise for their volunteer time and dedication. They all work together for a greater goal. I appreciate and enjoy their creations very much!

Now the ugly and cruel server debate on this thread: What have I learned here ?
1.) All the shard servers are illegal because the engine is released by Cyan in OpenUru.org, however the content is not, more specifically the ki. Shades of grey are all illegal in different degrees. Not pure and simple as some have stated, because legal is black and white.
2.) Cyan is cooperating through OpenUru.org and favors the shards and unnamed servers " Like any good neighbor we are more than happy to share our stuff with you" , also Chogon " This is to help promote the expanding MOULa universe." Just because a few were listed, I feel they are open minded to all shards and all servers; and also "CyanWorlds has no control over these fan run servers or shards"
3.) Dustin's UAM shard is in question. As rocketdog stated above, "all it would take for Cyan to stop Dustin is a letter of Cease and Desist"; as I have stated before, not a huge costly legal battle as some have said. Dustin Bernard cooperates very nicely and he does answer his emails. Some cruel things have been said about him in this thread ! I also think Dustin has a license with Cyan to run his server, although some here doubt that. Despite the fact that I have not verified that with Cyan legal to date, I believe it might be true? And I thank Dustin for his volunteer and unselfish work!
4.) The negativity here is huge and infighting does not solve the issues.

Now can we cooperate and move in a positive direction ? Cyan wishes to see Fan Age Creations! Cyan favors shards and servers through OpenUru.org. The code is put out there for all to use. We should move in a positive direction and fix whatever needs fixed, ie. the Ki issue. All should cooperate with Cyan, I think Cyan can not take a stand on which shards to use because of legal issues. Lets put our minds together and fix things. The fans need a server where they can test things before going public. Dustin's UAM has provided that, why guess if it is illegal, it does not hurt the other shards and servers and may be licensed. Cyan's "ire" would be directed to that particular server only and not all servers. I do not think Cyan would take revenge on all the servers for one server that might be illegal. That would be silly nonsense.

The Fan Age creations are our goals. Wonderful work done by many fans! I truly believe Cyan likes to see these great Ages created by dedicated fans no matter where they come from. The end result is a server to display them and for Cyan to see them. It does not matter how legal the server or which one, to view these Ages because they will take care of themselves in time legally. Cyan will not spread their anger across all shards and servers. So lets get positive and all get to work the best we can to fix things as Cyan wishes.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Karkadann » Tue May 09, 2017 10:39 am

One thing I noticed shortly after I bought the Original Myst game off the shelf at frys and all the rest of the Myst saga that followed is that the Myst saga is based on a dysfunctional family.
Well this thread seems to be proof of the old saying "Birds of a feather flock together" that being said Until Cyan and/or UBI get together and start passing out Cease and Desist orders to all Copyright violators all this thread is realy doing is being bad advertising.

These are the people that run our shards, this is what happens to age writers, This is a sample of our problem solving skills. Granted the dramatic steer manure here does not represent the community (or whats left of it) as a whole but they are the most vocal and its what people see first, and there is a good possibility its one of the many reasons why we have lost so many talented people over the years. The only newbie's your gonna attract like this is students of abnormal psychology, Trust me when I tell you people who study something like that are usually a bit off to begin with :D

All this because a bunch of age writers, stepped on the UAM/DI shard IED.
Its a improvised explosive device you guys realy need to disarm

Please DO NOT let this dramatic steer manure discourage you from your art, like it has so many others.

As a rule they say "there is no such thing as bad publicity" also as a rule "there is an exception to every rule"
Your posting this thread on the internet as advertising to attract more people to our little Myst community.
Now that you've shot your self in the foot Take that fifty pound backpack and march ten miles
Or ring that bell
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Doobes » Tue May 09, 2017 11:06 am

Karkadann wrote:that being said Until Cyan and/or UBI get together and start passing out Cease and Desist orders to all Copyright violators all this thread is realy doing is being bad advertising.


We shouldn't have to wait for Cyan and/or Ubi to take legal action. In fact, if they do, they could decide to just shut down open-source URU altogether and then where would we be?

This needs to be addressed before either entity has to do anything drastic to protect their intellectual property.

Karkadann wrote:All this because a bunch of age writers, stepped on the UAM/DI shard IED.
Its a improvised explosive device you guys realy need to disarm

Please DO NOT let this dramatic steer manure discourage you from your art, like it has so many others.


Again, nobody is (or shouldn't be) upset with the Age builders who were using whatever means they chose to test their Ages in a private setting. I myself do the same.

The issue here is a shard offering up Cyan's content for free publicly when said content ISN'T free.. If Cyan and Ubi choose to start giving Complete Chronicles away, then we can talk. As yet, they don't. Cyan doesn't even allow the MOULa files to be freely distributed yet, and that game IS free.

It doesn't matter what shards Cyan endorses or not...they will NEVER endorse a shard that just gives their content away without their permission. So far, the only shard that openly does that is the UAM Shard. It doesn't matter that certain fan Ages work better there...the shard itself is still wrong.

It's equal to hypothetically giving away a modified version of Obduction made for multiplayer with new fan-made lands to explore.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Korovev » Tue May 09, 2017 11:18 am

rocketdog wrote:There are different shades of gray, but they are all still gray. And that's the way the courts will see them.

Consider this post. Or this one. Or this one. Those threads aren’t even locked. If Cyan was worried about legal repercussions, wouldn’t they delete those posts and warn the posters? The one thread where UAM was discussed, instead, got zapped.

By the way: sort-of related old post.

rocketdog wrote:all it would take for Cyan to stop Dustin is a letter of Cease and Desist. I can't believe Cyan doesn't know that. So is it possible that Cyan is not even interested enough to send that letter to Dustin?

Maybe they did, it’s not like they’re going to tell you. Dustin might have just ignored that C&D letter.
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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Karkadann » Tue May 09, 2017 11:42 am

How bout this, we contact Cyan and UBI, about this issue and wait, until they respond we call a sees fire
if they respond we abide by there wishes,
if they don't respond we assume its not important enough for them to be concerned about and carry on as before preferably WITHOUT the dramatic Steer Manuer

You don't wanna drive any one else off or show the world that your crazier then I am

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Re: Questions regarding UAM

Postby Sirius » Tue May 09, 2017 2:41 pm

The negativity of this thread disgust me. It's actually hard for me to write without using the damned capslock key.

Once again, I'm going to try to keep it short, because I'm tired of spending all my evenings writing damned replies for people who might not even care.

Some people like Rocketdog, Dulcamara and Theo explain calmly why they use UAM, and explain they didn't know about all the legal issues around it. They even go as far as apologize for it.
On the other hand, we have people like Doobes, Korovev or Annabelle either attacking everyone on sight, heating the debate just to "educate people", or even saying "I don't care about what's illegal/convenient and I'm right to do so, go f-- yourselves". TrapperDave tries to avoid conflicts but merely enhances it by considering Cyan's silence as approval, which makes things worse. But it's okay, because "no one is attacking anyone, we're just elaborating because people don't get the message" (aka: try to hammer opinions into people's heads, without any consideration for people's point of view or sensibility)

Now myself, TrapperDave, Rocketdog and Karkadann try to propose actual solutions to the UAM problem instead of arguing about which Shard may or may not be legal. I was actually expecting the topic to finally come up with a good plan to solve the UAM problem. But Doobes and Korovev merely continue on the Shard-legality topic, belittling everyone's propositions while they are at it. Yet they make no effort to help finding a good solution, or propose a way to have people prefer DI over UAM, or anything. This is sterile, and quite frankly disappointing.

If this is the GoW, then I understand why so many people don't want to be part of it.
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