Korman Ladder Tool

General debates and discussion about the Guild of Writers and Age creation

Re: Korman Ladder Tool

Postby J'Kla » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:52 pm

Putting the ladder in a tube is problematic.

The way I have the ladders set you can either climb down or jump down also one of the clues is that you can see that there is something at the top of the ladder.

As it happens there is an introduction journal associated with the age so I could probably bury hints but forcing a first version view would make it easy and obvious.

The game is obviously capable of forcing the first person view because you can set it up in the settings so there has to be some sort of a vault switch to make this happen.

As I say I have a work around and was just wondering if there was some sort of code buried solution.

It is however proving a sod to set up this new aspect to the age testing is a pain as the only way is to follow the route checking of each marker as it is passed.

As each new marker is a number in Babylon cuneiform and is base 60 and it involves a mental translation into base 10.
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Re: Korman Ladder Tool

Postby Deledrius » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:04 pm

J'Kla wrote:Now in Ercana when you use the ladder at the far end of the age (that is the ladder nearest the pellet making machine) when you climb or descend that ladder you go into first person and remain in first person regardless of weather you were in first person when you approached the ladder.

I just checked this out. Turns out, it doesn't force the player into first-person mode. You're in third-person the entire time. In fact, if you're in first-person it appears to drop you into third-person when you mount the ladder!

J'Kla wrote:Is there some setting I could add to my ladders so that regardless of how you approached a ladder you jumped to first person or if you approached a ladder in 1st person you remained in first person? Without having to make some change to the game settings.

Note: it would require the fix to work for both the MO:ULa and Tpots export.

I had initially thought you were correct, but now that I'm spending some time on it, I'm not sure I can think of a single instance in the game where the first-person camera is forcibly enabled. The option exists (and they do use this more often than I would like) to force the player out of first-person and into a third-person view, but the opposite is not true (at least not without digging into custom Python). This is usually done because the location is exceptionally cramped or repetitive, or else they want to ensure the player sees something of vital importance.

When faced with a problem like yours, and knowing that Cyan dealt with it somewhere in the game, the first thing I do is take a look at how they did it. It's not always the best solution, but it gets me in the right region to start looking.

In the case of Er'cana, they're just using basic camera regions as far as I can tell. Since they set up the physical collision properly in the tunnel, the camera doesn't exit the geometry. It's bound correctly even in third-person.

This is the essence of the solution that you need: Set up a camera region that is attached to a camera within the ladder's passage, and adjust the settings so that it cannot exit the geometry. This is the main answer to your current issue as I understand it.

You'll need to create a region (if an acceptable one does not already exist) encompassing the ladder, and a camera. Add the Camera Region modifier to the region you created, and assign the camera option to the camera you created. Then, with the camera selected, you can modify the Plasma Camera options on the camera's tab for camera data. I'm not sure at the moment which precise settings would give you the best outcome, so you may need to fiddle a bit. I think the Follow Camera type should be appropriate here. Also be certain that "Blocks Camera" is selected on the collision geometry to prevent the camera from exiting the passage (you may need to make the collision smaller than the actual passage if it insists on "peeking" outside).

----

If absolutely necessary, you can disable the player's first-person camera to be certain they see your custom camera. I would like to note it should be used sparingly (as the game itself does) since ignoring the wishes of the player should only be done when better options are not available.

The two ways to accomplish the mandatory third-person camera are:
  • a Camera Message Node that you can use in a Responder command tree which can be used to disable first-person mode. It can be found in the Node editor's Add menu under "Message -> Camera". Further information should be available on the Logic Nodes page once they've been added.
  • the Global Python script made to accomplish this exact thing
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Re: Korman Ladder Tool

Postby Sirius » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:44 am

There is no way to enforce first person mode from the Python API, BTW. It's possible to disable first person or kick the camera to third person, but the reverse is impossible. Well, you could temporarily force the "Stay in first person" checkbox on, but that would be ugly and might mess things up.
I'd suggest trying to find another solution like a camera region (or maybe moving the clue so part of it can be seen from third person).

Forced first person POVs in the game are usually just third person camera too - like in Ahnonay's vog.
It's also worth noting there is a very fun bug in all Uru versions that allow you to revert the vog ride to a true first person view of the ride, allowing for a much clearer and OUTSTANDING view of the spheres. Probably my favorite bug of the game.
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Re: Korman Ladder Tool

Postby J'Kla » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:56 am

No problem I will work with journal hints I was just looking to see if there was an alternative method first. ;)

BTW Deledrius you mention at the end post "mandatory third person" and what I was after was "location specific mandatory first person" I have taken on board the camera regions solution but as this is going to be almost every time I use a ladder in this age it is going to be a sod to set up and even then it is only until such time as the player has understood the significance of the marks.

I have always considered it wrong that when playing in first person it jumps to third person when you climb a ladder. I suspect that is just me.

I am one of those people who gets annoyed when in a drama on TV they show a memory sequence that includes a third person view of the protagonist when in reality the only place they would be able to see themselves in third person would be a mirror or some other reflective surface. It was one of the things where "Quantum Leap" was particularly right at least for me.
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Re: Korman Ladder Tool

Postby Deledrius » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:43 pm

Sirius wrote:There is no way to enforce first person mode from the Python API, BTW. It's possible to disable first person or kick the camera to third person, but the reverse is impossible. Well, you could temporarily force the "Stay in first person" checkbox on, but that would be ugly and might mess things up.


There appears to be undoFirstPerson and setStayInFirstPerson, which seem to do both things. The actual code for cyCamera::SetStayInFirstPerson looks promising. I haven't tested if it actually works, however.

Sirius wrote:I'd suggest trying to find another solution like a camera region (or maybe moving the clue so part of it can be seen from third person).

Forced first person POVs in the game are usually just third person camera too - like in Ahnonay's vog.

That's my recommendation for the best solution, too.

J'Kla wrote:I have always considered it wrong that when playing in first person it jumps to third person when you climb a ladder. I suspect that is just me.

Same here; that's the warning I made in my post about avoiding it if at all possible.

J'Kla wrote:I am one of those people who gets annoyed when in a drama on TV they show a memory sequence that includes a third person view of the protagonist when in reality the only place they would be able to see themselves in third person would be a mirror or some other reflective surface. It was one of the things where "Quantum Leap" was particularly right at least for me.

Yeah, it's always a bit silly when shows do this. A notable example that comes to mind is the TNG episode Shades of Gray. Not only does Riker recall events in the third person (a necessary conceit in a clipshow reusing scenes from other episodes) but he somehow manages to even remember events for which he wasn't present!
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