UU discussion

[Chacal]

I have dealt with EA. I've seen brick walls more flexible and open to discussion.

[BAD]

Cyan is fair, but they have a tendency to not inform people very well. I know, I know. Captain Obvious to save the day!

That is the only thing that really bugs me about them. A little advanced warning about certain happenings would have gone a long way for them to preserve relationships with many people who felt used by them.

[belford]

My opinion (coming from someone who has had NO dealings with Cyan) is that we should not worry about trying to bring Cyan in, not because it is a "fruitless attempt" but because of the work we need to do in getting this Guild together. What Cyan will do it will do and pressuring them to get them to come and help us fortify the Age-writing process to lessen the threats posed is going to do nothing, in my opinion, than make our so-far-beneficial group into an annoying pest.

I agree in part.

We shouldn't *pressure* Cyan -- but then, we *can't* pressure Cyan. Lucky us.

We certainly shouldn't make plans that require Cyan's direct assistance, because any such plan will get hung up on an invisible schedule, and that's frustrating.

However, we should still be throwing them lines every so often. We're grownups who want to work with their company on a volunteer basis. We can try to start the discussion on security, or QA procedure, or whatever. That's why I sent in my suggestion list on handling player ages, a couple of months ago. Chacal's post falls into the same basket.

Either Cyan responds, or they don't. If they don't open a public discussion, they may still start a private discussion -- even under NDA, it's progress. If they don't respond at all, they'll still be looking at our ideas, which may then influence the future.

And if they behaved like a bunch of jerks last time, maybe they'll get over it next time. Better to give them the chance.

[Whilyam]

Right. My point is that we should be tending to our own house rather than sending weekly emails to Cyan asking/pleading/demanding they speak with us.

[BAD]

Cyan will not respond to anything someone sends them cold. If they don't know you, or what your about, then they most likely will ignore your message.

Especially if it is just an idea. Cyan is not looking for ideas on how to run their business. They know how to do that already. They are looking for an organized group, who will serve a function for them.

The United Shards was almost a group organized enough to gain their support. We were already in communication (back and forth) with Cyan, but the bottom fell out before any really good stuff could happen.

[belford]

I don't buy your assertion.

If I send in suggestions regularly (no, not weekly) then I'm not doing it cold. I post a lot. I write a lot. What I'm about is not a mystery.

Cyan has shown a willingness to work with individuals and small groups... particularly people who make an effort to contact them with practical proposals. Okay -- a small group of people are actively developing the Blender plugin. No amount of organization is going to make the Guild more effective on technical issues; that comes from having a few clueful people getting stuff done. What we can do to encourage Cyan in that regard is (A) demonstrate clue and (B) get stuff done.

And no, I'm not really interested in the disasters that happened in years past under NDA. I can't evaluate what happened based on second-hand dark muttering. Figure that everyone is going to learn from their mistakes and do it better this time. That presumption might be wrong, but so what? If it's wrong, we'll fail no matter what line we try to toe.

[belford]

To be clear: I deliberately take the tack of treating Cyan more openly, more maturely, and more personally than they (historically) treat us. I think their opaqueness and distrust is counterproductive; it hurts them and it hurts Uru. I can't change their attitude. But I want to encourage *them* to change it.

So I refuse to take the stance of "Cyan is this way and they will never change." They *do* change, even if slowly. They're not a monolith. If I send in an idea, I expect some elements of the company will say "No, we already have a plan," and others will say "Well, let's think about this some more." I am happy to engage with the latter, even if I can't see them behind the curtain. Convincing the others is their problem, not mine.

I write stuff -- reviews, discussion, suggestions -- as if Cyan were a person who is listening to me. I *know* a company is not a person, and I know I'm just one face in the crowd. But they pay attention, both through a process of filtering suggestions and through individuals inside Cyan who have individual responses. If they are to become more open and responsive, it'll be because we aim high and give them room to catch up.

[BAD]

I have tried to respond twice to you, but both times I felt I would come off badly (pun intended).

Do whatever you want. Makes no difference to me. I am not saying you can't send Cyan whatever you want, I am just telling you it is not doing any good for this guild. If your doing it for personal reasons, then I have nothing against ya.

If we want to be recognized as a guild, we will have to be able to speak as a guild. That requires representation and planning.

[Trylon]

I agree with Bad on this one.

[belford]

"If we want to be recognized as a guild, we will have to be able to speak as a guild."

I agree with that statement.

So, I believe we don't want to be recognized by Cyan as a guild.

(I've really been saying this all along, in an indirect and not-very-clear way. If you think I'm backpedalling on my support or enthusiasm for the Guild, please ask me for the long-form explanation, because I'm not.)