Place Names

Uru Localization Project

Re: Place Names

Postby Leonardo » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:49 am

Of course. But as I said, I find it ridiculous to make different standards for all the languages.

Now, you say that Old Standard is biased toward English. It is true. BUT, it happens that this is the most happy thing that could have happened. Imagine if Old Standard was biased toward Portuguese or Italian: English people (and people speaking languages where one letter can be pronounced in more than one way) would have difficulties understanding how to pronounce the word. Having the standard already set to address the problems of letters being pronounced in more than one way is a luck, it makes the standard already compatible with all the languages. It can result to be overly complex for languages like Portuguese or Italian, but it is necessary for other languages.

As for the Bible or New York examples: consider that, in most cases, when a proper noun is translated in other languages it is not because a translator made the decision to translate it; it is because the population changed the word naturally with the passing of time to import the word into their language and make it sound more "local".

So at the end the concept is one: translating proper nouns=bad thing.
You can choose if it is a good thing to have a common transliteration system or one system for each language. I find that the better solution is having one common system, which may become a bit more complex but at least is shared and is a common knowledge. Having different systems can quickly become a way to create confusion and misunderstandings, underlining the need too have a common way to represent things.
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Re: Place Names

Postby OHB » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:09 pm

Jutt wrote:There is one other issue with transliterations to consider, and that is communication between explorers, especially with different nationalities. Since most conversations are held through text chat, it's practical if everyone uses the same spelling for names. So provided a language uses the Latin alphabet, this would be another reason for using the original English transliterations.

I think this is a VERY important point.

kaelisebonrai wrote:The issue is that they're not translations - they're for describing d'ni characters using the latin alphabet.

Absolutely - this thread is strictly about transliterations. Translations of D'ni names is a big no-no.

Floydman wrote:But I say they're for describing D'ni characters in English specifically, not the Latin alphabet in general.

This is also absolutely true.

The existing transliteration guidelines are for English. Transliteration, by definition, is language specific. Each language has its own rules about how they write foreign words. Guidelines come into play to say "When translating THIS SPECIFIC LANGUAGE into English, here's the convention we use."

I think perhaps a compromise is in order. If, for example, place names in Japanese were only written in Romaji, if a Japanese explorer wanted to ask an English explorer for help with "ガーリーセン, I wouldn't know what they hell they had typed. Only after voicing it would I hear that they need help with Gahreesen.

So, I propose the following rules:

1. D'ni words and place names are always transliterated for non-Latin alphabets.
2. Transliterations may otherwise occur if the pronunciation of the English transliteration is really inaccurate.
3. Transliterations should follow some kind of per-language set of rules in order to maintain consistency. (This to be agreed upon by the translators)
4. When using a transliteration, the English version should be added in brackets (or the languages's equivalent of brackets).

Examples:

English: "I went to Gahreesen"
Japenese: "私はGahreesen[ガーリーセン]に行きました。"
Afrikaans: "Ek het Gahreesen" (English works for Afrikaans)

So, you'd always use the English, unless your language doesn't have a Latin alphabet or unless the pronunciation of the English is really bad - in which case you use both.

Anyone object to that being a rule? Feel free to amend it - it's just a suggestion.
Last edited by OHB on Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Place Names

Postby Floydman » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:57 pm

Leonardo wrote:As for the Bible or New York examples: consider that, in most cases, when a proper noun is translated in other languages it is not because a translator made the decision to translate it; it is because the population changed the word naturally with the passing of time to import the word into their language and make it sound more "local".


I see what you're saying here, and I agree with you. I really am not a native speaker of Portuguese, so I suppose I should have conversed with one before taking the stance I did here. I do like OHB's compromise, though.

I just realized that I have not been transliterating "Riven", "Moiety", nor "Tay" for The Starry Expanse Project. In this case "Riven" would be pronounced like "Hiven", but it still works. I'm still worried about h's in the middle of words for Uru, but I'll hold my peace until I can discuss it with someone else.
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Re: Place Names

Postby OHB » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Floydman wrote:
Leonardo wrote:I just realized that I have not been transliterating "Riven", "Moiety", nor "Tay" for The Starry Expanse Project. In this case "Riven" would be pronounced like "Hiven", but it still works. I'm still worried about h's in the middle of words for Uru, but I'll hold my peace until I can discuss it with someone else.


OK...I'm changing my suggested compromise around so that when a transliteration is done, it is in the brackets instead of the English. See above.

Some things like "Riven" must always appear when used - I think. So it makes sense to have the transliteration truly optional and in the brackets.
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Re: Place Names

Postby Paradox » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:55 pm

Floydman wrote:
kaelisebonrai wrote:The issue is that they're not translations - they're for describing d'ni characters using the latin alphabet.

Sort of like romaji re: japanese.

They specifically reference D'ni letter-pronunciations, not english ones. >.>


But I say they're for describing D'ni characters in English specifically, not the Latin alphabet in general. We cannot expect players to learn the New Standard of Transliteration, and the Old Standard is biased towards English, even though it claims to be a transliteration to the Latin alphabet. The Bible, for example, has been translated into both English and Portuguese, but the transliteration of names from the source language to each target language has not been the same (Adam and Adão, Eve and Eva, Joseph and José, Jerusalem and Jerusalém, etc.)

Just because something has been transliterated to the Latin alphabet does not mean that it has been transliterated to all languages that use that alphabet.


They are not English. They are D'ni. They are pronounced according to D'ni pronunciation rules, not English ones. While the D'ni pronunciation may match the English pronunciation for the representative letters, the word is still D'ni.

It is merely using Roman characters to represent D'ni characters (not necessarily equivalent ones).
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