What does this warning message mean?

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What does this warning message mean?

Postby Ehren » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:51 pm

So every time I start up DI I get a dialog box, it looks like this:

Admin Privileges

You are currently using "UruSetup.exe" to start Uru. On Windows Vista and newer, this means that Uru will run with admin privileges. That is discouraged and can cause various problem.


"Various problems" tells me nothing about what it's talking about. And I have always kept Uru on admin privileges! In fact, I was taught that to be the best way to make sure Uru works, especially CC/PotS versions given that it stores data in its own program folder.

It doesn't even specify if it is referring to various problems with Uru, or with your entire computer. I was just too lazy to post about it before since the game still starts after that message, but I really want to know what logic is in that message.

Also, the funny thing is that I start Uru with "UruExplorer.exe" not "UruSetup.exe".

NOTE: I have edited this message to be more like I should have phrased it in the first place. But I fully admit that my insecurities of feeling stupid about even needing to ask led me to being rude initially.
Last edited by Ehren on Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:10 am

I'm not daifero, so I can't speak to what specific "various problems" he was thinking of. That being said, in general, it is bad security practice to allow programs to run with administrator privileges. This means that Uru can do whatever it wants to on your computer without asking you. While Uru itself is not malicious, it would be trivial to set up a time-delayed exploit delivered through a fan-age that could use Uru as a vector for launching malware or performing other malicious actions on your PC. I do not feel like being more specific than that since Uru's only security tends to remain "security though obscurity."

Ehren wrote:Also, the funny thing is that I start Uru with "UruExplorer.exe" not "UruSetup.exe".

UruExplorer.exe will not allow you to start Uru directly by clicking on it (you can force the issue, but that's beside the point). UruExplorer.exe forces UruSetup.exe to run. Since Windows Vista, any program with the string "setup" in its filename is run as an administrator. This is to prevent old, pre-Vista installers from choking on UAC (or the lack of permissions).

Ehren wrote:This message sort of ticks me off to be honest


That's not a very good attitude to have when someone is trying to help you.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Sirius » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:25 am

Uru CC has issues when installed in the Program Files folder without admin rights (somehow the VirtualStore messes up with playback of bink files used in video linking panels, I recall ?). So yeah, for CC/PotS running with admin rights solve a few problems, even though it's not good practice for the reasons Hoikas mentioned.
The best workaround AFAIK is to install or copy it somewhere else, like My Documents, or C:\Games, which are not protected. This way Uru has total control over its own install location, and can run without admin rights.

Tsar Hoikas wrote:Since Windows Vista, any program with the string "setup" in its filename is run as an administrator. This is to prevent old, pre-Vista installers from choking on UAC (or the lack of permissions).

IIRC, for Deep Island, you need to use the "Launcher.exe" to avoid this problem.
Offline, you can just rename UruSetup.exe to whatever you prefer - it will still work, and will not be run as admin.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:51 am

I'm pretty sure DI includes a copy of UruSetup.exe renamed to Uru.exe to fix this problem.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Korovev » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:41 am

It does, and the setup guide explicitly mentions to use Uru.exe to launch the game.

The setup guide for offline Uru also mentions renaming UruSetup.exe to Uru.exe.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Ehren » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:57 pm

It still doesn't make sense to me.

Most of this only seems relevant to if UruExplorer.exe should be have admin privileges, how is UruSetup.exe a problem when it closes itself when Uru starts?

* Edited out stupid part of my message to save future readers’ time *

(Glad there isn't a time limit on editing, I seem to be having a hard time judging my tone. Also, hitting submit too early.)
Last edited by Ehren on Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Deledrius » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:24 pm

Ehren wrote:Do you disagree that "various problems" is annoyingly vague?

It's pretty vague, but it's also hard to describe the sort of issues it can cause in a concise way. I agree it could be important to know if it's immediate or not, which that doesn't convey.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:49 pm

Ehren wrote:Most of this only seems relevant to if UruExplorer.exe should be have admin privileges, how is UruSetup.exe a problem when it closes itself when Uru starts?

Good question. It matters because UruSetup.exe launches UruExplorer.exe. Unless otherwise specified, programs inherit their permissions from the program that launched them. Given that the "otherwise specified" part was not possible when UruSetup.exe was created, if UruSetup.exe has admin permissions, then UruExplorer.exe does as well.

Ehren wrote:Do you disagree that "various problems" is annoyingly vague?

Yes.
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby diafero » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:14 am

I admit after first reading this message I had to step back and come back 2 days later, because of how confrontational it was written. You repeat at least twice how terrible that message is that I wrote in an attempt to help people - because many people had issues with this. You use various other forms of hyperbole, entirely unnecessarily ("always, always, always", "how in the name of Yahvo"). No, you didn't insult me, but you also made no attempt to be polite. And it looks like you did not read the Deep Island installation instructions very carefully which are quite explicit about moving Uru out of the global program folder and using Uru.exe to start the game. None of this makes me very motivated to respond... but well, it seems we got an entire discussion here now, so whatever.

Now I am trying to remember what exactly the problems were that we had 10 years ago when I wrote that message. ;) But I think Sirius hit the nail on the head: the main issue is the Windows "virtual store". This is a mechanism by which different programs will see different files at the same location - when a user process writes to a system location, Windows puts that file into a "shadow directory", and while this process will not see any difference to normal operation, no other process will see that change. That is a great hack to keep old programs working, but when you have a bunch of programs working on the same files (such as the various Uru binaries and Drizzle), it can really mess things up when each of these programs has a different view of what is in that directory!

I'm afraid I forgot the exact symptoms caused by getting this wrong, but I think they were all over the place - stuff just behaved "weird", random parts of the game wouldn't work properly (because some files were missing), Drizzle would show error messages (because it lacked permissions to access some folders). It's really hard to say anything more than "various problems" in a situation like that. It's not like we tried to exhaustively catalogue the issues this causes. We had a series of people reporting a wide range of problems that were all fixed by avoiding admin permissions, so to protect people from this footgun we detected the problematic situation and went on to the next problem. That dramatically reduced the number of people that we had to manually give this advice.

I agree the error message isn't great. But you were offended (it seems) not just by the wording, but also by the content of it. The gist of the message (run Uru as user, not admin) is good advice as far as I know. Maybe others recommend running Uru with admin permissions as you said, and maybe you don't see a problem with running video games with admin permissions (I do, but this is turning into a religious discussion then), but in our experience and best judgment, Deep Island works best when you put Uru into the user folder and avoid admin permissions.

Also, the funny thing is that I start Uru with "UruExplorer.exe" not "UruSetup.exe".

That will just start UruSetup.exe then. You should start Uru with "Uru.exe" (as explained in the docs).
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Re: What does this warning message mean?

Postby Ehren » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:22 am

Sorry...

Well I do appreciate the time taken to explain that message, even though I certainly still have some trouble understanding what it all means.

diafero wrote:It's really hard to say anything more than "various problems" in a situation like that.

I know what you mean about not going into too much detail. My best idea would be mentioning severity, mentioning if we are talking about various problems with just Uru itself, one's entire computer, or the server. But perhaps that's awkward to phrase as well.

diafero wrote:Maybe others recommend running Uru with admin permissions as you said, and maybe you don't see a problem with running video games with admin permissions

To be clear, I didn't just randomly decide to run Uru with admin permissions, I was having legit problems with things like the Virtual Store that you just mentioned and Uru just plain old acting strange and crashing. Setting it to admin privileges is what FIXED those issues from happening for me. But confusingly it sounds like it caused the problems for other people? There's just no winning running old games I guess.

Also, I keep Uru with admin privileges, but not any other video game! I'm not going around giving everything those settings, I swear.
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