Is it time for a new PyPRP release?

[Christian Walther]

Okay, I think we have established that doing a release is a good idea, and there seems to be sufficient support from the developers to at least give it a try.

Two things need to be discussed now:

• Do we do it according to
  
  • Trylon's plan, which includes planning for new features, some of which may make it into the release, some may not (the cluster stuff might fall under that);
  • my plan, which concentrates on releasing finished and almost-finished features we have right now;
  • some mixture of the two or another plan entirely?
  My argument in favor of my plan is about not biting off more than we can chew - I think that working in smaller steps is more likely to lead to success.
  
  
• Do we set ourselves the goal of producing comprehensive, unified technical documentation, as Lontahv proposes, for this release?
  
  I would rather not require this, for the same reason as above. I think having short wiki articles about the most important features, augmented by a few tutorials where people are available to write them, is a more chewable bite and already goes a long way towards enabling the general writer populace to use the new features.

Any opinions?

[Lontahv]

I think if we do nothing else, we should archive the current wiki and package the pertinent bits with the release. If we do this, then people who, say, don't have steady internet connections, can build ages. I get the uncomfortable feeling that most (mainly offline) software nowadays requires internet (even if you bought a disc) and says: "Can my installer use you internet?" and you're like: "Hey, I got the installer and THIS is what I get? Downloading... when will it end. ". I think the plugin should make some attempt at being self-contained.

Apart from that, I think it's a bit much to ask for complete documentation at this point.

[Robert The Rebuilder]

If the next release will be 2.0 (breaking compatibility), please document what portions are incompatible with existing ages prior to its release. That would provide the warning up front to the casual user that they should refrain from using the new release until later, and it would make writing a converter much easier.

If the next release will be 1.X (maintaining compatibility), then disregard.

[Christian Walther]

I think if we do nothing else, we should archive the current wiki and package the pertinent bits with the release.

Good idea. I suppose we don't only want the articles about new features, but also the ones about previous ones. How do we find these? Sift through the whole wiki by hand? Package the entirety of the wiki, even unrelated pages?

If the next release will be 2.0 (breaking compatibility), please document what portions are incompatible with existing ages prior to its release.

Yes, that seems like an important point to me.

[Marcello]

Just a question now... many great and constructive suggestions have been written in this thread and many want to cooperate and add their share to get a new release out. Somehow though I feel like we need to coordinatie things to really get to a new release, maybe even plan some new features and get documentation done.

Maybe I'm wrong and things are being coordinated by someone. If not... is this in the works or should we arrange this for things to happen?

[Jojon]

Well, this would be what Christian volunteered to do. Maybe he and Trylon will agree to share the task of coordinating the efforts -- we'll see soon enough, I guess. :)

Now, on that lower-than-tutorial documentation level; I don't ask for full technical writeups, but still think that everything that PyPRP is capable of, should at least get a brief mention in a complete reference guide of sorts, even if most stuff is just listed, without any elaboration -- this, I think, would be preferrable to having to skim the actual plugin scripts for information. :7

[Christian Walther]

Right. I see determining who will coordinate this as the next step after deciding on a plan of action. If we opt for Trylon's model, he may want to take a more active role. I am ready to take the lead either way, if that is desired. I don't know if sharing the responsibility equally between several people works well - that seems to require a lot of communication, which is something I'm not good at.

Right now, I am in standby give-people-a-few-days-to-respond mode.

[Aloys]

• Do we do it according to
  
  • Trylon's plan, which includes planning for new features, some of which may make it into the release, some may not (the cluster stuff might fall under that);
  • my plan, which concentrates on releasing finished and almost-finished features we have right now;
  • some mixture of the two or another plan entirely?

[/list
My argument in favor of my plan is about not biting off more than we can chew - I think that working in smaller steps is more likely to lead to success.

I would also totally advise against that first option. It looks like it will be a big enough jog to complete and stabilize the features, adding some on top might be too much. Plus it may just be easier to do later once there is a stable (and documented) version.
(But I may not be in the best position to give advice for these kinds of things..)

Do we set ourselves the goal of producing comprehensive, unified technical documentation, as Lontahv proposes, for this release?

That seeems like something highly desirable, although that work doesn't need to be completed at the exact same time as the new version (but it would definitely be cool). Anytime is chosen I would gladly participate.Also some of this can be started even before the code is merged and can be tested. At the very least we could start to organize the work and see what needs to be done. Because I somehow have the feeling that it will be faster to merge existing code than it will be to start all these tutorials from scratch..

[andylegate]

A new release, even if it breaks compatibility, would definately be enough to drag me back. Glad to see this is finally happening.

Just an observation BTW - Just because OSMO will be released is no reason to throw away the current and hopefully soon to be released new plugin. That seems to have been a major assumption here, that people would simply stop making Ages for Uru:CC completely once OSMO was opened up finally. That assumption is wrong, for I know at least I will continue to make things for Uru:CC simply based upon one reason: My family. Not all of them are into the Online part of the world, or some of them (my kids) are not allowed online all the time, but they do like Uru, and they've loved not only my Ages, but other people's hand made Ages as well.
So simply because OSMO becomes available should simply mean that the original plugin becomes obsolete, but not a thing to be thrown away. Not everyone rushes out to buy a new car, just because a new one came out.

For me, most of the frustration comes from wanting to do things that are quite common in Uru, not rare, but having to go through some complex ways to get it (and it still not turning out quite right) that didn't include using the plugin. While rain and snow may not be too commone, steam and smoke are some common things. Changes in the time of day are also something that isn't that rare.

When I first started out learning how to create Ages, the learning curve was so steep, I wondered if I was going to be able to do it. Most of that steep curve was Blender itself. The plugin itself was not that hard, and I could always ask questions here about it, and get an answer right away (those of you old timers will remember the thousands of questions I posted here...... heh.......). Once learning Blender was mostly under the belt, I started having a lot of fun. It was both fun and wonderful to see something coming alive from my head to the computer screen.

But then to finally start adding some of the things that our Ages could desperately need (particles, material animations, global animations, etc), we were being forced to use Libplasma instead of the plugin to achieve this. Suddenly, instead of cruising down this highway on the right side of the road, I was having to drive on the left side.....and there was still on coming traffic! AAAAHHHGG!

So suddenly, it just wasn't fun anymore (and many other new writers complained to me the samething. Libplasma was like a brick wall in the middle of the road for them). So while I found the tool useful, it just didn't "feel" like Age creating anymore. Now it felt like I was having to become a hacker of Plasma. While I have great respect for those of you that do this (it's a LOT of work, and takes a large amount of concentration, logic and intuitive thinking, hats off to you guys), it's not what I wanted to do. It was not fun, and instead felt like work. Frustrating work. I actually dreaded opening up Blender and working on an Age, because I knew that if I wanted to add certain things to it, I was going to be forced to use hacking in the end.

I had asked about a possible new plugin release a few months ago and was greeted with crickets chirping or a shrug. So after going from working with the plugin in harmony to having to duke it out with Libplasma in the end to achieve what I wanted, I realized that I was tired of getting my butt kicked in the ring. Heh.

So I've left this behind for now, and started up some new things that were fun. That's when I realized how much "No Fun" I was having at the time. Now I was having less headaches, less worries, and less laying in bed staring up at the ceiling trying to figure out what the heck I was doing wrong in Libplasma. Instead I was going to sleep soundly thinking of how the next day I would be logging on to EVE to change my training skills for a new starship, or loading up radiant to put the final touches on a new COD 5: WoW map that I created with my son's help.
I did sleep soundly before, as I drifted off thinking about new Ages and things to put into it. Mainly because of how exciting it was to see with each new plugin, how so many new and wonderful things could be added to the Ages, and how the Dev's were so hard at work making it happen.

So I'm glad that Dot pointed this thread out to me over here to read (The GoMa had to use a net and tranquilizer gun over at FaceBook to capture me....I had run away screaming evil laughter like a madman once I was no longer tied down with my leadership role over there......they found me busy plotting my evil take over of the world through Mafia Wars and Pirates on FB, and deadly battleships that I'm building in EVE......took about 15 darts to subdue me and drag me back.......). A Big thumbs up to all of you trying to do this, and look forward to seeing a new plugin put out there for us Writers.

Now if you'll excuise me.....I have to get back to finding my way out of this padded cell that the GM's from the GoMa locked me up in......I think I can use this tin foil, toothpick and chewing gum to escape again.........will have to be when D'Lanor comes in to feed me............................

[Jojon]

Now, consider the efforts of carrying around little pots with crickets in them, for the purpose of answering people. That takes dedication.

Good to see you again, Andy. :)


Hmm... I think I'll actually put a sample of crickets om my phone and whenever I get a question I am unable to answer, or that is just plain stupid, I'll say "hang on" and bring up that sound. :PPP