Re: Almlys situation

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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Almlys » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:47 pm

This is a response to this thread, I don't have permissions to reply to that thread, and I don't know if I should have permissions to see that forum area.
But I think that in some way or another I need to write some type of reply, and since nobody reads Alcugs anymore, I suppose that this is the best place to write it.

Let's begin:

Hoikas wrote:Also, Almlys envisions something a bit different from what we want to do with PyPRP. I really like the idea, but it introduces a level of complexity I think is not good for your every-day age creator. Detail: He wants a world creation framework to write content for both his 7d7 engine and Uru. Many developers aren't interested in writing code for 7d7, which was one of the decisive issues...

Trylon's rewrite offered a chance for us to keep PyPRP as it is, and we're taking that.


How many times, I need to say and repeat, and repeat, and repeat, that PyPRP and 7d7 and OpenPRP are completely different projects and they are not related. Them do not have nothing to do. I was working on other projects when I started with PyPRP and that was not a valid excuse. In fact I started working in PyPRP alone, some developers started to contribute, then they decided to kill the original author, and now I'm again alone working on PyPRP, well that's fine, I think that it's better, we are now competing for a better version of PyPRP.
As I repeat, and repeat, my envisions are not different. So, I repeat "Many developers aren't interested in writing code for 7d7, which was one of the decisive issues..." this is not a valid excuse, 7d7 is hosted on another repository, and write access to it is restricted mainly because 7d7 is my own solo project, as several other ones that I'm working on.

Aloys wrote:In many ways PyPRP is his baby, eventhough he hasn't contributed anything in over a year (and with the two refactoring there might just be nothing left from his own code)..


I'm an human being, as any other humans we sometimes have problems. I think that explaining now what happened to me over that year, and why I have been so inactive is a bit pointless and very boring. It's just something that happened and that's all, now I'm active at 200% again.

Aloys wrote:Just a question: was Almlys contacted about this whole forking idea before it happened?


No, it's more easy to shot in the back like the cowards than just send some mails/PM/IM or a meeting in IRC to discuss why do you guys hate me too much.

Bad wrote:Guys, I think we need to start discussing things more before making decisions like this. Plus we need to get feelers from the people directly involved.

You already know how the world works. These things happen. Real life is plenty full of really bad situations that make this whole fork idea a really small stupidity.

Aloys wrote:Surprisingly he doesn't seem too angry about all this right now, but he doesn't seem too happy either..

I have more serious problems on my hands to be worried or angry about a fork. It hurts, yes, but is how the world works.

Aloys wrote:He says he will get involved again in PyPRP in the future, but it indeed appears the direction he wants to take is very different that the current Uru focused work. But would his work be valuable or just an hindrance? If indeed the way he wants to go is just too different, then there's no turning back.

We may discuss this again when PyPRP RC1 gets released. As I repeat It has nothing to do with 7d7 and any other projects.

Aloys wrote:Beside, anyone know just how much of his original code is left in the current incarnation of PyPRP? If there's quite a bit of it he has a right to be displeased... If there's nothing (or not much) left then the situation is different. Then, just out of diplomacy, couldn't we change the name to something different? No more Almlys code, different name, then it's a totally different thing and he has no reason to be unhappy (less reasons at least)..

Unfortunately someone decided that it would be very funny to break subversion in a way that "blame" does not work, so using "blame" to determine how many code is from an specific contributor it's a bit pointless. There may be other ways, but them are more time consuming than a simple "svn blame". And there is still a lot of the original code, or a mutation of it.
About changing the name, I request that at least please, ensure that you add GoW on all places, because there are several pages in the GoW wiki that only talks about the plain PyPRP and I think that it's a bit confusing for users. Because PyPRP 1.0 it's going to be completely different from Gow PyPRP 1.0.

Paradox wrote:Firstly, people have always wanted everything to be centralized as Adam mentioned. Since GoW was first opened, there have always been requests that the tutorials on Alcugs be moved over. The legal agreements at Alcugs made it more difficult than a simple copy & paste, and many of the tutorials were in need of rewrites anyways.

You wanted to copy and paste the entire Alcugs wiki, and let it die. Try to copy and paste Wikipedia without linking back to them, you may die. I was only asking links back to the original place were the original stuff is maintained and will continue.

Paradox wrote:Trylon was rewriting the plugin to add a lot of new features and changing most, if not all, of the existing code in some areas. When trying to commit there were often errors with the SVN at Alcugs that made development difficult when versions could not be synchronized.


Subversion at Alcugs works fine, so that it's also not a valid excuse. Just because the server was not using the swap partition and at some random times was running out of memory, it is not a reason to go away. Yes It was a mistake for my side, I don't know what happened, due to that subversion was not working well. I think that the price for my mistake is too high.

Paradox wrote:Without sounding harsh towards Almlys, it has to be said that he hasn't been involved with PyPRP in the recent past, and that his focus has been heavily directed towards 7D7 and schoolwork. At times, it was uncertain if the site was even being maintained.

See my response to Aloys comment about my lack of involvement. And unfortunately it does not have nothing to do with schoolwork or 7d7, it's more complicated and it's not suitable to discuss my private life and personal issues on this forum.
About maintaining the site, I don't know if you just are concerned about the resources (economical) and (human) required to maintain a site like the Alcugs project. I have been always doing an effort to maintain all the software up to date to the latest version (I'm subscribed to the announce lists), and in fact since I set up Xen on my system Alcugs was moved to it's own dedicated virtual machine.

Paradox wrote:The decision to fork was made around the time that rumours of 3DS Max tools started to surface. We thought it would be best to set up a wiki here, with tutorials for multiple tools and multiple programs, rather than rely on the existing, but fragmented, documentation spread across the Intenet. We also wanted to make sure that PyPRP was always available to Age Builders and future developers and that it could be updated to include support for other versions of the Plasma engine once we hear any news from Cyan.

3DS Max tools, where? Ha, Ha, Ha, the first reason on why I started working on PyPRP, is because some individual started to do a lot of noise about some 3DS Max Tools that as far as I know has not been released yet.

Paradox wrote:To Almlys: As much as it may seem otherwise, it was not our intent to cause you more trouble. You haven't admittedly been clear with your intentions for PyPRP with regards to 7D7; and the OpenPRP project I have heard nothing about. As for Uru on Linux, MOUL works under both wine (0.9.52) and Cedega. I have run PotS successfully in the past, but encounter problems when I try to now.

Just thing that 7d7 and OpenPRP do not exist, and that I'm working only on PyPRP. Makes things clear now? MOUL sucks under wine/cedega and I prefer to work on PyPRP than losing my time on attempting to run PotS again on Linux.
OpenPRP Show Spoiler


Bad wrote:So Branching out makes sense then. We can centralize our development here, and link it to Alcugs forums right? Since we basically have to rewrite everything, it will become the GOW's.

We just have to keep Almlys in the loop. As he is a member here now, that will be easier. I asked him to explain what he is up to with his projects, so we can discuss this again after he informs us about that.


As far as I know, and how I have seen on this other topic you are going to other way. Yes, some links back to the official Alcugs forums/wiki may be appreciated, but it's not happening and it's not gonna happen.

As for keeping Almlys in the loop, as far as I searched I don't see traces of a repository anywhere, and if there is one as far as I know I don't have read access to it, something that would be very apreciated in order to keep the official PyPRP subversion repository in sync with the fork.
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby BAD » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:08 pm

The reason you can not respond to the thread you linked first to, is that it is read only for members. It is a Council discussion part of the forum that is viewable so we don't discuss matters privately.

As far as I know, there is no intention to subvert your wiki with ours. We will link there when we need to, and we hope you will use ours if you see a reason too.

Just because someone makes a suggestion doesn't mean the GOW is going to do what they want.

We are still organizing too. Some things are still a bit dis-jointed. Please have patience with us as we get things in order.
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Aloys » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:38 pm

I will try to post a more complete reply tomorrow (it is 2am here) but for now I will put on my 'End User' hat for a second, and I'll be the devil advocate.

As a End User of the tools (and I'm talking about Uru tools as a whole, not only PyPRP) the less tools the better. For many reasons: most end users don't want to bother learning several tools. They don't want to have one function in a tool, and an another in another tool. They want one single tool with everything inside. (and if possible a nice manual with it). People are *lazy*, and time is a limited ressource, that's why tools (and manuals) are for, to make things easier, to increase productivity. So when it comes to tools the mantra is: the simpler the better. And simple also means: less tools.

Also, as someone close to the development of these tools (at least as close as a non-developer can be), I see the developments of several tools having the same features as a waste of ressources. Of course I understand why most people want to work on their own projects, there are many reasons for that and most of them are valid, even if it sometimes ends up as a duplicate of someone else's work. But from an End User perspective it is a waste of ressources. I know that it is not easy to have many people cooperating on a project, especially when it's a voluntary project, and especially when it happens over the internet. So I'm not saying that focusing everybody's effort on a single PyPRP would be easy. I just think that this is a difficult project, and any help is more than welcome.

Almlys, if indeed the work you are doing on your version of PyPRP is focused on Uru, like the GoW PyPRP, then we are doing duplicate work, and we are wasting ressources. PyPRP is crucial. So we can't loose ressources. We should all find a way to cooperate on a single project.
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Robert The Rebuilder » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:24 pm

Almlys wrote:As for keeping Almlys in the loop, as far as I searched I don't see traces of a repository anywhere, and if there is one as far as I know I don't have read access to it, something that would be very apreciated in order to keep the official PyPRP subversion repository in sync with the fork.


I am also looking forward to an announcement of a GoW subversion repository; it would make collaborative work on the plugin *much* easier.
Can we rebuild it? Yes, we can - here's how.

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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Almlys » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:52 am

Aloys wrote:As a End User of the tools (and I'm talking about Uru tools as a whole, not only PyPRP) the less tools the better. For many reasons: most end users don't want to bother learning several tools. They don't want to have one function in a tool, and an another in another tool. They want one single tool with everything inside. (and if possible a nice manual with it). People are *lazy*, and time is a limited ressource, that's why tools (and manuals) are for, to make things easier, to increase productivity. So when it comes to tools the mantra is: the simpler the better. And simple also means: less tools.

I agree

Aloys wrote:Also, as someone close to the development of these tools (at least as close as a non-developer can be), I see the developments of several tools having the same features as a waste of ressources. Of course I understand why most people want to work on their own projects, there are many reasons for that and most of them are valid, even if it sometimes ends up as a duplicate of someone else's work. But from an End User perspective it is a waste of ressources. I know that it is not easy to have many people cooperating on a project, especially when it's a voluntary project, and especially when it happens over the internet. So I'm not saying that focusing everybody's effort on a single PyPRP would be easy. I just think that this is a difficult project, and any help is more than welcome.

I agree

Aloys wrote:Almlys, if indeed the work you are doing on your version of PyPRP is focused on Uru, like the GoW PyPRP, then we are doing duplicate work, and we are wasting ressources. PyPRP is crucial. So we can't loose ressources. We should all find a way to cooperate on a single project.


Can you tell me, who told you that my work on PyPRP was not focused on Uru?, I don't know what people think what I do, or who I am.
And yes I agree that a single project is better. So what's the point of the fork at the first point? Why abandon Almlys at Alcugs?
I don't know, and I don't understand.

In fact, any work done here will be immediately merged at Alcugs, I don't know if the reverse will happen.

Robert The Rebuilder wrote:I am also looking forward to an announcement of a GoW subversion repository; it would make collaborative work on the plugin *much* easier.


Subversion repository and trac. I need to know the address of it, so I can plug my script to automatically update our repository with the latest changes, and then I can manually merge them to trunk.

Robert I'm currently maintaining a copy of the fork here, anyone is more than welcome to work at Alcugs.
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Robert The Rebuilder » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:20 am

Almlys wrote:Subversion repository and trac. I need to know the address of it, so I can plug my script to automatically update our repository with the latest changes, and then I can manually merge them to trunk.


Kato just announced the availability of the SVN repository - see this post.
Can we rebuild it? Yes, we can - here's how.

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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Marcello » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:13 pm

Ok, I'm reading all these posts and have no clue what happened, who made what decission, etc. As far as I can judge it looks like everyone tried to do it's best to somehow take the plugin a few steps forward. Maybe cutting some corners, forgetting to communicate for whatever reason and what more.

I can relate to the fact that some explanations are/were necessary to get the communication line open again and to regain some respect and understanding. What I read in all this is that everyone involved wants the same thing. I copy Aloys' comment on the need of one darn good plugin instead of two or more. I'm postponing the purchase of a HD system, because of the HD DVD and Blueray thing and don't want to stop studying age writing until one plugin surfaces ;)

I respect Almlys for all the work he has done and how he got us all started in the first place and I respect the developers here at GoW for working on the new features. So please get on the same boat, share experiences, divide the workload and be creative. Hell, stuff like this should be more fun working together. Although I still head over to Alcugs frequently to see what's happening, I think Almlys benefits from the enthousiastic crowd of writers over here at GoW and the GoW developers benefit greatly from his knowledge.
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Trylon » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:17 pm

Marcello,
this post will probably answer most of your questions
One day I ran through the cleft for the fiftieth time, and found that uru held no peace for me anymore.
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Marcello » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:25 pm

Thnx for the backstory Trylon. What I am most interested in are the last lines of that post in which a joined effort is promoted. I sincerely hope it will come to that and that efforts are being made to make that happen /cheer
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Re: Almlys situation

Postby Chacal » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:49 pm

This is a situation often seen with volunteer-based development projects (meaning, no contract, no pay). People come and go, sometimes real-life issues wrench someone away from the project, often this happens to the leader itself. This happened to almost every Battlefield mod team I've participated in.

Going into such a project with these possible issues in mind helps cope with them when they happen. I understand what Almlys is going through, it's not easy to come back to one's own project after some time and find out it has been going on under a different leadership.

But it is better than coming back and finding the project dead. At least in the current situation, all the work Almlys has done in the past is not wasted. Isn't that what's most important?
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