Random thoughts

[Lehnay]

Drizzle and the Offline KI combine to make MOUL content accessible offline. Now we can explore the ages as they were. Not necessarily as they were at any given time on Gametap's or Ubi's servers, but as they were intended by Cyan to look and work.

I agree with those who argue that things should not be moved around too much. It may seem odd to place a pedestal on Ri'neref's face, but I don't think that the Offline KI should remove it by default.

In the same vein I think that Cyan's "tickers" in the city should not be visible by default. diafero has mentioned adding SDL vars for them and that would be great, I think.

I am of two minds about the addition of linking books to Myst V ages. Well, not about having the choice to add the links, but about adding them by default. It is cool that we can link there. On the other hand, the converted ages are not intended to be playable. (And they don't need to be, since you could just start Myst V.) For my part, I see no point in going to these ages from Uru. Still, I have converted my Myst V files because without them, some linking books gave an error message and that felt broken somehow. Actually I would much prefer it if I could disable all Myst V links globally. Would this be difficult to implement? In the museum, the relto page could be moved back to its 'proper' place if the Todelmer link was not wanted.

Another thing that would be nice is if some links could be added only after you visited the corresponding age, rather than by default. If you never finished the game, you may want to use the clues in Sharper's journal to find the link to Descent after recalibrating the Great Zero. Having the bahro stone there all the time rather spoils the fun. It is too easy to find the stone by mistake early on. And the linking books in the library could perhaps be made to appear once their ages have been found. (Is there still a problem with the Er'cana book in the library, by the way?) What do others think about this?

To my mind the guild pubs are a bit different. I do not think that they should be for 'members only'; that does not make much sense in a single-player game anyway. Still, when I see the list of guild pubs in the Nexus, I feel there's a missed opportunity here. I am not a programmer, but looking at the python code from MOUL, I get the impression that the game actually looked at the colour(!?) of your guild shirt in your closet (if any). The closet part does not make sense; the nexus or lattice shouldn't know anything about your closet (in a different age). Also the game should not prevent you from collecting several guild shirts: it would be better if it looked at what you're wearing right now. But the colour part makes sense. Clearly it is not intended to be some security measure to exclude people. (It would be poor security anyway since you could just borrow a guild shirt, or steal one, or make one.) Rather, it seems that the nexus adds a link for your convenience: it scans you, notes that you are wearing guild colours, and adds a link to the corresponding guild pub for you. Such a link should remain even if you came back later wearing a different guild shirt; if it does not identify or remember you, the nexus should just add another link. (On the other hand, if a security thing was thought to be desirable, the lattice should probably first identify you [like in Bevin], and then check your KI number against a membership roster or something. But that's not how it was implemented, I think.) In any case, adding the links one by one would allow the player to explore and gradually discover things, while remaining reasonably true to how the ages looked and worked. Thoughts on this are welcome!

And now for something completely different: there was a painting in Sharper's office with KI numbers that only appeared when you took a ki picture. Could this detail be implemented offline?

On a final note, I just received my Crowthistle cd from the US. Dart-Thornton's book does not interest me, and I would not have bought the cd just because it's by Cyan. I am not that much of a fan. I bought it because of the possibility to integrate the Crowthistle ages with my Uru CC install, using Drizzle and the Offline KI. I really think that these tools add substantial value to it. Thanks!

[diafero]

Drizzle and the Offline KI combine to make MOUL content accessible offline. Now we can explore the ages as they were. Not necessarily as they were at any given time on Gametap's or Ubi's servers, but as they were intended by Cyan to look and work.

Great to hear you like the general direction the project is taking

In the same vein I think that Cyan's "tickers" in the city should not be visible by default. diafero has mentioned adding SDL vars for them and that would be great, I think.

I can not do these prp modifications myself, but it seems we found someone who's willing to do it, so it will be possible to hide them in the next release . However I think they will stay on per default, because they also have the purpose of announcing some other changes in an IC manner.

I am of two minds about the addition of linking books to Myst V ages. Well, not about having the choice to add the links, but about adding them by default. It is cool that we can link there. On the other hand, the converted ages are not intended to be playable. (And they don't need to be, since you could just start Myst V.) For my part, I see no point in going to these ages from Uru. Still, I have converted my Myst V files because without them, some linking books gave an error message and that felt broken somehow. Actually I would much prefer it if I could disable all Myst V links globally. Would this be difficult to implement? In the museum, the relto page could be moved back to its 'proper' place if the Todelmer link was not wanted.

Alongside with the tickers, we might also get an SDL to hide the books to Todelmer and Releeshan. However I would still prefer them to be on per default, so that people can learn about these ages.
Btw, the Relto page is at its proper place - it has always been there in TPOTS.

Another thing that would be nice is if some links could be added only after you visited the corresponding age, rather than by default. If you never finished the game, you may want to use the clues in Sharper's journal to find the link to Descent after recalibrating the Great Zero. Having the bahro stone there all the time rather spoils the fun. It is too easy to find the stone by mistake early on. And the linking books in the library could perhaps be made to appear once their ages have been found. (Is there still a problem with the Er'cana book in the library, by the way?) What do others think about this?

Are you speaking about the TPTOS library books? No, Er'cana is not fixed, it never got really implemented by Cyan. And to be honest I don't like them, so I won't put a lot of work into them. D'Lanor made a post somewhere with a code snippet to add an SDL var, maybe I can do that for the next release so that hiding and showing them is permanent.

To my mind the guild pubs are a bit different. I do not think that they should be for 'members only'; that does not make much sense in a single-player game anyway. Still, when I see the list of guild pubs in the Nexus, I feel there's a missed opportunity here. I am not a programmer, but looking at the python code from MOUL, I get the impression that the game actually looked at the colour(!?) of your guild shirt in your closet (if any). The closet part does not make sense; the nexus or lattice shouldn't know anything about your closet (in a different age). Also the game should not prevent you from collecting several guild shirts: it would be better if it looked at what you're wearing right now. But the colour part makes sense. Clearly it is not intended to be some security measure to exclude people. (It would be poor security anyway since you could just borrow a guild shirt, or steal one, or make one.) Rather, it seems that the nexus adds a link for your convenience: it scans you, notes that you are wearing guild colours, and adds a link to the corresponding guild pub for you. Such a link should remain even if you came back later wearing a different guild shirt; if it does not identify or remember you, the nexus should just add another link. (On the other hand, if a security thing was thought to be desirable, the lattice should probably first identify you [like in Bevin], and then check your KI number against a membership roster or something. But that's not how it was implemented, I think.) In any case, adding the links one by one would allow the player to explore and gradually discover things, while remaining reasonably true to how the ages looked and worked. Thoughts on this are welcome!

The MOUL Python code looked at the type of shirt you had in your closet - the five guild shirts were actually five completely different shirts, not just the same shirt in 5 colours. And since I never understood why that should be, and why you could have only one of them in your closet at a time, I changed the code to be able to collect all 5 shirts, and to always reach all 5 pubs. What you are suggesting is still being able top get them, but only after getting all the shirts, correct? That still leaves the unexplainable connection of Nexus and closet...

And now for something completely different: there was a painting in Sharper's office with KI numbers that only appeared when you took a ki picture. Could this detail be implemented offline?

I only know of a D'ni 3 appearing in one of the pictures (and AFAIK that is also the case in TPOTS). And they are caused by weird transparency bugs, which I don't think are worth the effort to be copied... That would have to be done by Drizzle anyway.

[Lehnay]

Great to hear you like the general direction the project is taking

Just wanted to check that I got it right ... no use rambling on if I got things completely wrong at the outset

I can not do these prp modifications myself, but it seems we found someone who's willing to do it, so it will be possible to hide them in the next release . However I think they will stay on per default, because they also have the purpose of announcing some other changes in an IC manner.

Great! Good point, about using the tickers to announce changes.

Alongside with the tickers, we might also get an SDL to hide the books to Todelmer and Releeshan. However I would still prefer them to be on per default, so that people can learn about these ages.
Btw, the Relto page is at its proper place - it has always been there in TPOTS.

That would be great. About the relto page, wasn't it at the 'Todelmer pedestal' in MOUL? It's no big deal anyway.

Are you speaking about the TPTOS library books? No, Er'cana is not fixed, it never got really implemented by Cyan. And to be honest I don't like them, so I won't put a lot of work into them. D'Lanor made a post somewhere with a code snippet to add an SDL var, maybe I can do that for the next release so that hiding and showing them is permanent.

Yes, that's the one. Not that I miss it much, I was just curious. Sounds like D'Lanor's code is just what I was after. I hope it can be added!

What you are suggesting is still being able top get them, but only after getting all the shirts, correct? That still leaves the unexplainable connection of Nexus and closet...

Not quite. I meant: have the Nexus check what you are wearing right now. That removes the unexplainable connection. If you are not wearing a guild shirt, don't add any guild pub links. If you are wearing a guild shirt, add the corresponding guild pub link. Once you get a guild pub link, it stays. When you come back wearing another guild shirt, then that guild pub link is added too (the old one is not removed). To collect all the guild pub links, you would need to have picked up all the guild shirts. There would be some (potentially annoying*) backtracking involved, but you would also be able to explore and discover the connection yourself. I think that such an arrangement would be better than just serving the player all the links on a silver plate (or in a bucket, eggs on top), but that's just my view of course.
(*As a cure for the potentially annoyed, there could perhaps be a cheat like growing the tree etc, to add all links right away.)

I only know of a D'ni 3 appearing in one of the pictures (and AFAIK that is also the case in TPOTS). And they are caused by weird transparency bugs, which I don't think are worth the effort to be copied... That would have to be done by Drizzle anyway.

The numbers 3 1 4 appeared, making people speculate that it referred to pi somehow. There is a screenshot on this page (scroll down a bit): http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14999&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=450. Is it really the result of a weird bug??

[ddb174]

On a final note, I just received my Crowthistle cd from the US. Dart-Thornton's book does not interest me, and I would not have bought the cd just because it's by Cyan. I am not that much of a fan. I bought it because of the possibility to integrate the Crowthistle ages with my Uru CC install, using Drizzle and the Offline KI. I really think that these tools add substantial value to it. Thanks!

Yeah, Drizzle has definitely sold lots of copies of that! It has sold some copies of Myst5 too, but most users already have that, so not so much as Crowthistle. And some of the people have then become interested in the series and bought the other books!

[Darien]

Yeah, Drizzle has definitely sold lots of copies of that! It has sold some copies of Myst5 too, but most users already have that, so not so much as Crowthistle. And some of the people have then become interested in the series and bought the other books!

I'm one. I bought Crowthistle Book Two, The Well of Tears just for the CD. I was curious enough to borrow Crowthistle Book One, The Iron Tree from my local library. After reading it I eagerly dove into The Well of Tears and will soon be buying the rest of the series. I'm enjoying Crowthistle enough that I'll probably check out Cecilia Dart-Thornton's Bitterbynde Trilogy also. All this because I could convert the Crowthistle CD into Uru.

I'm sure ddb174's royalty check from CDT is in the mail.

[diafero]

About the relto page, wasn't it at the 'Todelmer pedestal' in MOUL? It's no big deal anyway.

That is correct, but this is not its original position - in TPOTS it was at the other side, where no books are.

Not quite. I meant: have the Nexus check what you are wearing right now. That removes the unexplainable connection. If you are not wearing a guild shirt, don't add any guild pub links. If you are wearing a guild shirt, add the corresponding guild pub link. Once you get a guild pub link, it stays. When you come back wearing another guild shirt, then that guild pub link is added too (the old one is not removed). To collect all the guild pub links, you would need to have picked up all the guild shirts. There would be some (potentially annoying*) backtracking involved, but you would also be able to explore and discover the connection yourself. I think that such an arrangement would be better than just serving the player all the links on a silver plate (or in a bucket, eggs on top), but that's just my view of course.
(*As a cure for the potentially annoyed, there could perhaps be a cheat like growing the tree etc, to add all links right away.)

Oh, now I get it - though I still don't see why Nexus should have a camera and an AI behind it identifying cloths and their logos and colour... alternatively, the guild shirts could have a RFID tag adding the link . That would be a way to explain it, but to be honest I don't want to put my time into such changes I don't like ... I still do all this for fun . If anyone else wants to do it, feel free to PM me and I'll send you the source of the Nexus. Maybe if I am really bored one day I decide to go for it, but that won't be within the next months

[Lehnay]

Oh, now I get it - though I still don't see why Nexus should have a camera and an AI behind it identifying cloths and their logos and colour... alternatively, the guild shirts could have a RFID tag adding the link . That would be a way to explain it

I don't know why it 'should' have a way to identify stuff, but I think it does -- that is, it was designed that way (by Cyan, or them d'ni guys). <shrugs> Perhaps when the system zaps you away it needs to scan you anyway; registering colours would then be just a part of the standard process.

but to be honest I don't want to put my time into such changes I don't like ... I still do all this for fun . If anyone else wants to do it, feel free to PM me and I'll send you the source of the Nexus.

Yeah, I know your position, diafero. Like I said, I'm not a programmer, but I haven't given up just yet. Still I wanted to throw my thoughts out there and see what people think. Perhaps the guild pubs simply are pointless offline, no matter which way you look at them?

[diafero]

Perhaps the guild pubs simply are pointless offline, no matter which way you look at them?

That's a good point, too - I mean, who do you expect to meat there?

[Lehnay]

That's a good point, too - I mean, who do you expect to meat there?

Yeah, but now that someone did make the effort to make the Guild Pubs accessible offline anyway, I thought it might be possible to make them more interesting for offline play, somehow.

I'm interested in what people think about this, regardless of whether any changes to the guild pubs are ever implemented or not.

In my posts above I tried to outline how the Nexus and the pub links might work, and a possible "in cavern" explanation.

As for the nexus recognizing guild colors, in my (humble) opinion it's an IC explanation no worse than others. Each guild had its color. The formula for the dye to make clothes exactly like that was probably kept secret. Despite any trade secrets, it would no doubt have been easy enough to get your hands on a guild shirt, if you really wanted to; by stealing or even forging one. Still, just like if you walked around in your home-made or stolen police uniform, people would notice soon enough. There would be something wrong in the details, or you did not talk or behave in the way expected for a guildsman, or other guildsmen would not recognize you. The real 'security' would be built into the society itself. Which no longer exists. Which makes it possible to create a puzzle based on the guild shirt you're wearing.

Of course, the guild pubs would be even more interesting if some discovery made there led to another. A clue in an imager picture? But that's in the future. I was thinking, could the guild pubs be made slightly more interesting as they are, without too much work?

So. What do you all think? Would something along the lines suggested make the guild pubs more interesting? Or are they just hopeless cases, anyway?

[ddb174]

In terms of fun gameplay, it might have been fun if Cyan made it so that you only have to wear the shirt the *first* time you go there, and after that it is like you have solved the "puzzle" and collected the Age. Having Ages that you have to go to the closet each time first is not fun gameplay in my opinion. But I imagine that this might have been intended as social Ages for the upcoming Season 2, which they named "Rise of the Guilds".