GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

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GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby phoenix » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:04 am

Yip, after ignored emails, terse replies from the dev team, rudeness and ignorance... GoW is losing its fans once again.

The dictator style on GoW fails to miss that Uru is about people young and old. From the young kid to the old timer who wants to chat.

So we get scar face (My dad always said, "Dont be afraid of the guy with a scar on his face.... Be afraid of the guy who gave it to him!") who is a coder but not a people person who has no right judge people on their worth with the impoliteness which is his style. It is fact that GoW has lost tons of fans because of their management style and loses even more by the day.

Who coded Uru anyway.... Rand Miller.... Whos idea was it.... Rand Miller.... come down from your lofty throne of paper mache! Without Rand you'd still be coding databases to pay your rent...

This is the last contrib I will make to an anti-family group. You may delete my posts and my wiki... because you guys prove that coders miss the big picture by far. If you guys keep thinking like you do, you will sink uru even more... you will bring shame to Rands work.... and you will lose your fan base....

How many people have already left and you still dont GET IT! It is not about you... it is about the FANS... There are better run wikis and forums that respect that they may be dealing with a 10 year old up to a 60 year old. FOR YOU TO MISS THAT IS PLAIN IDIOCY!

If I had to run my business like you guys do, sure I may make a hundred dollars now and think I am rich while p*ssing off my client.... only thing is kiddo's... I would lose out on the ONE MILLION DOLLARS IN REPEAT BUSINESS..... FORESIGHT IS EVERYTHING.... That is what Rand has... That is what you DO NOT have!

Management is everything and a company is only as healthy as its top managers... If you miss that, you are an idiot!

FANS FIRST

Bye!
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Luna » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:35 am

A) Rand miller did not write one bit of code of Uru.(Probably for the best)

B) Fans Leaving? Which fans? I only see one.

C) Honestly it have been your own mistakes. Your tutorial is honestly almost unreadable, I have tried. Other tutorials in the wiki are a lot better. This wiki is as good as the others I have seen.

D) irritation, impoliteness and aggression are answered by irritation, impoliteness and aggression. Because that is how it rolls.
Code: Select all
long longestTimeWithoutPlayingMoula = (new Date()) - (new Date(2014, 9, 26));
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:42 pm

Let's get angry because I'm actually doing my job and trying to keep the wiki up to some par of quality.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Chacal » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:53 pm

Phoenix, your rant was insane.
Irritation, impoliteness and aggression may be the norm here, but we have learned to deal with it in more elegant ways.
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"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong."
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby diafero » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:58 pm

Okay, at least now I don't have to think about how I could tell you that your how-to is way too long and complicated.

See, you come in here obviously with little knowledge about how Uru works, and about what's necessary to set up a Shard. That's perfectly fine and applies to many here. However you go ahead and start to claim that you know what we should work on, saying you'd be good in that "giving a rough direction" part. And then you go ahead and write a long and needlessly complicated tutorial instead of asking how this can be done easier (seriously, Wireshark for determining the IP address, or whatever the point was? And some spreadsheets to create the dataserver? Two short questions here or in IRC would have saved you a lot of work, time and frustration). You go on with some plans that are interesting projects, but far from needing a "how-to" - you first need to do it, and/or find a team to do it. And then you wonder why we do not appreciate your work. Maybe Hoikas should have waited before deleting that wiki page (I know I'd have waited), but most of what you said you aimed at was totally unrealistic.
Do have to say any more? Fans are welcome, help is welcome, and you are welcome, too. But your behaviour was too much "I know what's good for you" and too little "I'd like to learn and help, what can I do?".
I prefer e-mails to "diafero arcor de" (after adding the at and the dot) over PMs.

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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Branan » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:25 pm

You need to think of the GoW like an outdoor market. The Councilors facilitate artists and developers and help create the infrastructure so those creators can build and distribute their own works. Ultimately, if one of those creators does something that makes it harder for all the other creators to do what they want or to find the information they need, we will take a corrective action.

You are our customer as much as any other artist or developer is. We are happy to answer questions, and to help you create tutorials and services for others. It's what we're here for.

As others have said, your shard setup tutorial was too long and complex. You clearly don't have a solid understanding of the material yet. And until you do, it's as much our resposibility to make sure that you don't pass on too much incorrect information to others as it is to keep helping you learn. That means keeping a tight hold on the wiki - not just when you add to it, but when anyone new and inexperienced has information they want to share.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do. And I do understand why you are upset. I hope you can understand why those actions were taken.

You have a strong drive to learn, and a clear passion for Uru. Those are the best qualities for good, long-term GoW contributors. If you take a step back, slow down and get a firmer grasp on things before jumping in, I'm sure you could do great things here. We never like to see a promising developer leave.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Tomala » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:11 pm

GBCW Troll! Yaaaaaaaay. There might be some life in this place left after all. :)
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Lontahv » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:55 am

Let's take a step back and examine the facts. This place is run by fans: the fans that moderate the wiki, the fans that contribute art, the fans that code, and all the rest of the people who do stuff around here. All of the people who are here are here because they have something to stay for, that is, there is some facet of Uru and D'ni that sticks with them and makes them want to stay. Nobody is forcing anybody else to do anything... this isn't really a place of hierarchy. However, as Branan pointed out, the Guild of Writers does have an obligation to uphold some kind of rules so that fans don't confuse and misinform other fans. Moderation of any forum or wiki is much like arresting people who try to blind passenger jet pilots with high power lasers: restraining the few to protect the many.

Also, I'd like to reiterate what has been said earlier in this thread: it seems like only one fan is leaving not many. Phoenix, if you in the future choose to stay, please be aware that writing wiki pages only helps you and others learn if you ask questions. The best place to get a quick response from one of the developers is through IRC chat. Also, rather than private messaging one of the developers, private message a few of them at once if you want a quick answer.

I do find it interesting that people who end of posting angry remarks always choose the same things to say and the same way to say it. They always mention how people here are unhappy, and the administration is driving everyone away by being cruel. It always seems like people who get disgruntled are asking questions, putting together the puzzles of age creation, and then suddenly write some incoherent post about the GoW going to hell. I almost wonder if there is one person they talk to who poisons their mind against us. Sure there are some flaws, but look around, there IS life here.
Currently getting some ink on my hands over at the Guild Of Ink-Makers (PyPRP2).
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:52 am

Our resident troll decided to continue his tirade when I issued him a warning for spamming... [The OP was spammed to about 10 topics]

Troll, Troll, a Trolling wrote:Tsar.

It is because of your style that you are losing fans. If you cant be humble and play team, youll be coding this thing alone.

Have you lost the ability to talk to another human being? In my post I said I would not be back, and you can delete the wiki I wrote.

It is about the fans, which you seem to miss. What about the kids out there that you have scared away.

DELETE MY WIKI


Gotta love how I'm driving our entire fanbase of one person away by doing my job :roll:
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby phoenix » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:49 am

I can accept what you all have to say and that I have to learn your ways, even for my age. However since this is a community development site, why is it that some of the guys here tend to trod too heavily over people? Tsar if you edit my work with words like "Crap" and "Useless" you can expect the brunt from me. If you did not say those words, I will gladly apologise to you.

I have a very good sense of fairness and my rant was levelled at the way some of the few deal with people without the human touch. I can admit that at the moment of writing I may have pelted it out a bit too vehemently. Come on guys, if kids were looking for stuff and they get that kind of treatment, they'll grow up just the same.... Now how does that fit in to the ethos of one of the first non-violent games that appeals to such a wide age group.

Yes some folk have mentioned you guys operate on a select few basis, but that came after my gut started talking to me over the last few weeks. Unanswered emails to Tsar and Zrax, though they had time to edit the wiki and write posts. So sure I can fess up and say I was partly rash but not totally unfounded. Remember that I have already proven to be very frank in everything I do. Where you guys have excelled I will say so loudly like I have, but where you miss the boat, believe me I won't shut up.

I can say that I apologise to Tsar for the spamming. It was out of league, however the reason behind the message was a valid one. This site is for a wide demographic. If you lose that, you will lose people, and sometimes you will get people like me who just dont put up with that kinda thing.

As for the wiki, Diafero had agreed to launch his own version then he back-stepped on what we had agreed. When I wrote the wiki it was not for developers... It was for writers who need to test stuff that they don't want to spend time coding. The start of the wiki was explicit enough about that. By the time I tried Diaferos version the steps did not work anymore. When I confronted him he found a way to shirk it off. By that stage I had well and truly had it.

As a writer and builder I have spent a lot of time building and testing the ages I have been working on, 6 huge outdoor ages, the result... I gotto learn a whole new set of tools, and still have not found a way to build MOULa ages. Everything is so scattered, I spend more time reading forums than building the ages. This is why I started focussing on a wiki page even if it was overly detailed (Remember it was not aimed at developers and you guys did not have a similar wiki page that actually worked). My dev cycle has been knocked into the dark ages. I made some valid proposals about how CWE could develop with Shard Hopping and Home Ages, and yes I was too loud about it, and yes CWE may not be ready for it, so I will let that go. As for the principle of the AAA idea, the reduction of rubber banding, uninterrupted sound, and no screen freezes these arent just strong beliefs, for an ~MORPG that never got to the stage a true MMORPG it is just common sense.

I know how to make ammends, but it is a two way street. I offer the following because I do recognise that you guys have a progressive dev cycle;

1) Leave the wiki I wrote as it is: (for writers and age builders who want a step by step to build a test shard - I have a copy on hd.)
2) Let Diafero keep his word and write the one he said he was going to write and post it under a new name.
3) Tsar, I asked you some questions via email that were important that I have not had a reply on.

That is what I can offer right now.
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