GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby diafero » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:11 am

As for the wiki, Diafero had agreed to launch his own version then he back-stepped on what we had agreed. When I wrote the wiki it was not for developers... It was for writers who need to test stuff that they don't want to spend time coding. The start of the wiki was explicit enough about that. By the time I tried Diaferos version the steps did not work anymore. When I confronted him he found a way to shirk it off. By that stage I had well and truly had it.

As I already wrote: Check the timestamps. The agreement was fairly implicit, IMHO it began when I wrote "Since it seems you are aiming for something different, it hardly makes sense for me to edit your tutorial to achieve that, so I guess I need to look for a new name ;-) ". Which was on August 1st, and my edit of your article was on July 31st. I did not back-step, get your facts straight.
Also, your article was labelled "Development:...", so it definitely was for developers.
Whom do you think your how-to is helpful for? I tried to use it when I got stuck during my setup, but could hardly find the place in your instructions which I was at. And when I found it, after understanding the instructions, they turned out to be needlessly complicated and sometimes even incorrect, or specific for your setup and therefore unusable in general. If I have problems understanding what you mean, how do you think someone with less computer and Uru knowledge should follow?

I made some valid proposals about how CWE could develop with Shard Hopping and Home Ages, and yes I was too loud about it, and yes CWE may not be ready for it, so I will let that go. As for the principle of the AAA idea, the reduction of rubber banding, uninterrupted sound, and no screen freezes these arent just strong beliefs, for an ~MORPG that never got to the stage a true MMORPG it is just common sense.
Believe it or not, we know many of those issues. But before adding to the network protocol, we need to re-write it anyway so that it is less insane, and so that it can work cross-platform. And before changing the physics, we need to replace it with a proper open-source physics engine. Repeating the obvious issues, at the current stage, does not gain us much.
The problem is not that we do not know what do do and desperately look for new stuff to implement. The problem is there is so much to do. So you ended up telling us what we already knew, claiming to know how CWE should be changed, and then waiting for us to comply your plan. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it came across.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Zrax » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:55 pm

phoenix wrote:Unanswered emails to Tsar and Zrax, though they had time to edit the wiki and write posts.


I can't speak for Hoikas, but I never received any emails from you... I did try to answer all of your PMs, except in one or two cases where I felt like I (or someone else) was already answering it sufficiently on the public forum. If you were sending emails to me, I have not been getting them for whatever reason (yes, I did just check my spam folders and didn't see anything).

Unfortunately, I do have a day job to keep myself busy, and even outside of that I can't devote all of my time to Uru stuff. Interestingly enough, your interest in DirtSand got me more involved in Uru stuff than I have been for probably several months.

Keep in mind that all of us are doing this for free, in our own spare time, just because we enjoy it; expecting us to wait on individuals like yourself hand and foot all the time is something that will just not happen -- not from us, and not from anyone else who provides a service or program for free. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's just the way the world works ;)
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby phoenix » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:26 am

Diafero, the wiki page was inclusive of age builders and writers. What it ended up being is what programmers do best, they take out the stuff that is obvious to them and ASSUME that people know this stuff, that is the reason is why it was so explicit in the details.

Diafero: The problem is there is so much to do. So you ended up telling us what we already knew, claiming to know how CWE should be changed, and then waiting for us to comply your plan.


One thing you fail to realise is that you guys dont communicate in a big-picture kinda way. I asked for a Roadmap so I could see where you are, and got told to write one myself.... thats nuts! If you guys tell people where you are, they dont have to bug you about it. Your inner circle is just that, and you dont let just anyone in, so be it. It was due to my questions that I found out you guys were in pre-alpha... Yeesh, I am not a mind reader... If I stoked the fire a bit then good... we got 2 CWE engines, 3 servers, one tpots engine and a ton of confusion and not one of you has written a white paper or roadmap so people like me can shut up and build our ages while you guys do what you do best. So how can you be shocked when someone notices that and b**ches about it?

I got stuck with creating custom avatars only to find out I cant test them in TPOTS. It woulda been handy if the forum took these issues into account and seperated the various versions. I cannot tell you how confusing it is. Now I know what you will say.... I am still new at this and need to learn it the way you did... well, am I that new? I am very familiar with system design and making stuff user friendly. You dont have to be a programmer to be efficient.

At no time was I dictating about what you should do, until the end I lost it for a moment because of what had happened and I pelted out the two last aspects I thought was missing. I have already apologised for that. So come to the table diafero. You did not read the intro to the wiki properly. That is why you missed the aim of it and basically trashed it. You wont ever prove to be right on that one because the words are in the wiki.

On top of that, the wiki was a draft, didnt you read the start of it. I even said it needed changes, so instead of recommending how the scripting could be made easier, which was part of the teamwork thing... all I get is complaint that it was not perfect.... Here is a question? Did you or did you not get a Sandbox Shard working due to following the wiki page whether or not you had to do extra stuff to get it to work?..... So did I.... because it was a work in progress!

So we can drag this out or get on with Uru. As for me I'd rather build ages, now that I know where in time you guys are;

GoW is at pre-aplha and cant tell anyone when they will release the first version... cool I got it.
GoW is aware of the rubber banding, sound stutter, screen freeze, lag and horrendous network protocol in uru and is doing what they can... cool, got it
GoW is dropping tpots, alcugs, blender 2.49 development in favour of CWE/Dirtsand/Blender2.57/3DSMAX... got it
A lot of the tuts on GoW dont say what version they are for, and noone knows if they can actually build a working MOULa age by following the tuts... cool, got it
The Dev Team is hard at work in their spare team just like me and my day job, and doing what they can... cool, got that too
GoW does not have a public roadmap yet, so must not be surprised when people ask questions and make strong proposals. If the roadmap was there, people would shut up and wait patiently.... got it,

So as for me, now that I know what you guys are thinking I can do what I do best, while you do what you do best.

Diafero... if you want to write your own shard wiki page without dataserving, go on and do it.... thats your right... but in future keep your word when we agree to something and we will get along just fine!

Back to the drawing board;

Yip!
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Calena » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:47 am

phoenix wrote:
people like me can shut up and build our ages while you guys do what you do best.

Yip!


Finally, a good idea. It's been working great for me. I'm already on my second age.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby diafero » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:05 pm

Thanks for expressing your thoughts and (finally) giving some constructive criticism.

I don't want to waste more time on the destructive part of your post, so let me just sum up:
- I did read your intro. My problem was, as I said, not that stuff was missing, but the instructions were needlessly complicated and clearly showed you did not (always) understand what was going on. That's okay, of course, unless you write a tutorial about exactly that. If you tell others what to do, you must have understood it. Maybe you could just admit that the tutorial you wrote was not a good one - nor was it a draft for a good one.
- I did not "trash" your article. I removed the section that you mostly copied from the DirtSand README, to let it point to a dedicated article that I mostly copied from the DirtSand README. This was an attempt to make your article shorter and thereby easier to read. If the DirtSand instructions are too complicated, they should be fixed - but not by having an article of almost 50k characters. Besides, you could have reverted that change with two or three clicks of you disliked it so much.
- After we had our "agreement", I did not touch the article.
- The wiki is everyone's resources, and everyone is free to edit every article if that increases its quality. Now, "quality" is admittedly a subjective term.

Now coming to the rest: You are right, it is complicated. But we do not have a closed inner circle. It may seem so since there are some that have worked on this for years, and when you are new you don't have a clue. The wiki was a mess, and it is still in a transitional state - tutorials are being updated. I do not know whether, when you joined, you already saw the new starting page. It contains a bunch of links to small articles that explain various terms like Complete Chronicles, Path of the Shell, CyanWorlds Engine, and so on. Maybe that would be a good starting point for a new contributor: Searching through the wiki and the webs, and asking in the forums, until Uru Live, POTS, Alcugs, UU, MOSS, CWE, DirtSand, MOUL, MOULa and so on are understood, and then writing a (short!) wiki page that gives an overview, as well as one wiki page for each of these terms with a short explanation (many already have a page). It should not be too long to not frighten newcomers, it should just avoid confusion like this one. I believe the short pages on POTS and CC we already have help a lot on this, if and only if people really notice and read them.

On the roadmap: I kind of dislike that term, since I connect it with things like due dates, which contradicts the way we work. There also is no roadmap as every developer defines his goals for himself, and works on what he likes to work on. So even though I claim that the primary goal is portability, someone else might decide he re-writes the rendering core to use DX11 and fancy effects, or whatever. The way open-source software works is incompatible with roadmaps. (EDIT: I added a short section to the wiki clarifying this, I hope I don't step on anybody's toes by doing so).
I am surprised how you came to think that we were not aware of the rubber band and other issues. We play and played that game, a lot, how could we miss those problems?

And finally: There is no such thing as "the GoW knows/is/thinks/...". GoW is the place we come together to talk, and exchange our experience and code. But this is not like a corporation, GoW does not represent anybody, it's just a meeting place and everybody is (usually) speaking for himself only.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby phoenix » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:35 pm

Diafero: After we had our "agreement", I did not touch the article.


Ok, then which diafero pulled the dirtsand section out of the wiki. Dude, come on. One minute you say you edited it, then you say you did'nt.

Diafero: and my edit of your article was on July 31st.


Case closed.

Diafero: Maybe you could just admit that the tutorial you wrote was not a good one - nor was it a draft for a good one.


I been writing drafts for a long time, its pointless trying to grade the quality of a draft in that context. It could be a few lines or a few pages. Keep the subject here. The wiki page was a work in progress of something that was not fully documented. The point is that I rebuilt the shard like I said I would, and according to the instructions to test if what I wrote was right. So how come you expect me to produce a perfect work in progress but dont give me time to test it. Do you remember seeing the version number at the very start of the wiki: pre-alpha 0.01 - Case closed.

Next, granted, that when the wiki was first written it was confusing, (some of my questions I was not getting answers to) example: Zraxs readme was great, but didnt mention the two copies of python27. One unencrypted and one encrypted. So not even the pros could tell me that. I had to find out by using what I know of programming, debugging and testing - Case closed.

Again, the article was for age builders and writers. My only error was putting it in the developer section, which if it was read properly, you guys would have immediately pointed out that it was not meant to be in that section but under age building. I would have taken that as good feedback and we would not be having this conversation.

Also I had previously made the point of why I writing the page under Avatar Vitals and Crawling.

Phoenix: My last resort to getting to testing my animation has resulted in changing courses for a brief while. I realised that the only way I am going to get this done and in the time frame I have dedicated to it, is to setup a testing shard.

As such I have been working through this over the last few weeks, and am almost done writing a comprehensive and concise tut on setting up a Sandbox Shard. When it is done I will submit it to GoW wiki for their records, so that other fans who want to build a testing platform can do so with the CWE based version.


Case closed.

As for the way you dont like roadmaps, so be it. At least now I know... I can drop that. Case closed.

I am surprised how you came to think that we were not aware of the rubber band and other issues.


Wrong assumption here: Not that you guys didnt know, rather that noone was talking about. I opened the subject to get the official verdict, and as I went along, there were some amazing replies that shed light on this subject. So no, you read me wrong there. Case closed.

There is no such thing as "the GoW knows/is/thinks/..."


Sorry you lost me with that line. Got no idea what you mean by it.

Diafero, it seems you want to keep this subject open. I dont see the point in that, but one thing you will learn about me, I am no pushover. I got a lot of respect for someone when they stand their ground, but I lose that respect for them when they break their word. You can shirk around that issue as much as you like, raising all sorts of side issues that are not at the core here. If a person keeps their word, they PROVE that they can be trusted.

You have a lot of talent in things I cant do as well as you, sure, I know how to recognise that. But there are things that I do well at that you cant do as well as I can. But one issue is at the heart of it all. You can simply apologise, like I have for my mistakes, and we can close this and move on. Or you can keep this going for as long as you like.

I give you credit in that you have the guts to stand up for yourself, and make your points in a rational way. I respect that, but dont let you ego stand in the way. By now you and I have one thing in common. We know what we want to say and we say it. What you and I need to do now is figure out how to move ahead.

Later
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Stucuk » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:07 pm

Id recommend if you want your page(s) on the wiki, to work on it on your computer and when its more ready to ask peoples opinions before putting it up. That way its less likely to be deleted.

Note: I don't Condone or Approve of anything that anyone has done. The above is just my advice at how to move on in a way where the "Incident" is less likely to happen again.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby diafero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:05 am

Don't worry, I will keep this short.

phoenix wrote:
Diafero: After we had our "agreement", I did not touch the article.


Ok, then which diafero pulled the dirtsand section out of the wiki. Dude, come on. One minute you say you edited it, then you say you did'nt.

:lol:

Look what I wrote. I still stand for it. I don't break my word. You can accuse me of a lot, but not of that.

Just in case you still don't get it: I said After we had our "agreement".

Now I won't waste my time on this anymore. Have fun.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby kaelisebonrai » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:28 am

Phoenix. I'm going to be blunt here. And branan is probably going to kill me for it. But damnit, I've tried to keep my mouth shut on this, but no longer.

Its a wiki. On adding content to a wiki - you give all users of that wiki a LICENSE TO EDIT whatever you put on that wiki.

I don't care if you had an agreement with Diafero (which, looking at the timestamps, happened /after/ he made the edits you're having a fit about)... Even if he *did* edit it after your agreement, he has every right to do so.

Anyone can edit the wiki, and that article, regardless of if you approve of those edits or not. You have given them a license to edit it however they choose.

Get the hell over it.
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Re: GoW is a sinking ship... fans are leaving...

Postby Wamduskasapa » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:54 am

OK here is my 2 cents

That documentation is covered by a GNU Free Documentation License which is open source.
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