CWE testing builds released

Announcements and discussion regarding any projects related to Cyan Worlds' Plasma Engine including (but not limited to) CyanWorlds.com Engine, Drizzle, OfflineKI, PyPRP, and libHSPlasma.

Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby andylegate » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:32 am

I should also note that once something changes in the PRP format, the old Cyan plugin won't be useful anymore. Hopefully those changes will get merged back to Cyan, but that could be a slow process, and in the interim any fan shards that are more cutting-edge would need ages built with updated plugins - which would only be available for 2010 and newer.




Please note: not arguing here, just curious.

So what happened to backwards compatibility? That was something that was very important to a lot of people here not too long ago.

I mean if you are going to change things to where people that have older versions of Max will be shut out, I would HIGHLY recommend that PyPRP 2.0 gets some major progress going (not saying nothing has been done, just that right now it has that appearance). The GoW has always prided itself on the fact that it has provided a way to make Ages using a completely free 3D modeling program (and I always felt those kudos were well deserved. I mean Blender and PyPRP was how I learned in the first place).

For so long people that did have Max were shut out. I'd hate to see the tables turned (or worse since it would be Blender people and Old Max users), and suddenly places like The Pirate Bay has new customers that would normally never go near a place like that. Heh.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby tachzusamm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:26 am

I just want to support what Andy said.

Actually, I have a huge respect what you people did with getting the Max plugin working with newer versions of Max. Good job, no doubt about it.
It will allow Builders who prefer Max but can't get a copy of the older V7 or 8 to write their Ages.
But I already left the university too long ago, and therefore can't get a student version. And since Myst Online is open source now, it would just fit better to create Ages with open source tools as well.
Additionally, it took me years to learn all those Blender tricks, understand what the options do, how they depend, how it will look then in the Age, and now I'm at a point that I can say I'm ready to start writing Ages with Blender. Good looking Ages, pleasing ones, with working puzzles and huge, if necessary. And I'm fast enough now.
It's not only building/modelling, much more is needed to create a good age. Seamless texturing, animations, sounds, puzzle-integration, lighting, multi-player issues, colliders, VisRegions and general region handling, camera setup, ...
If I have to switch to Max now (although I assume I can't pay it), I will have to learn again a long time. Not sure if I can keep me interested long enough again.

That said, may I ask what's the main difficulty in porting the PyPRP 1 thing to PyPRP 2?
I already had a look into the PyPRP2 scripts, and as far as I see it works completely different than the PyPRP1 export. PyPRP1 did all by itself, but PyPRP2 highly depends on the LibPlasma tools. Is this true?
Or, in other words, is there only some code missing in PyPRP2 Python scripts, or do the LibPlasma tools need lots of work as well to get the project continued?

I'm asking because maybe I could help in developing the exporter, but currently I don't completely get what the scripts do, or where to continue.
Maybe a LibPlasma interface API documentation could be helpful.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Wamduskasapa » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:43 am

I am also Curious and maybe a little Angry: There are those of us who live on a limited income and are not rich enough (evidently like SOME here) to be able to afford Brand New Software and Brand New Systems. Yes - we are the Old timers - we were the ones that learned programming on Old Blue (IBM 360) and even on the venerable UNIV, MINIX and LINUX. We are the ones who gave you KIDS your new toys, and the ability to use them..

Now you are telling us to go take a HIKE!!!

That is what I call TRUE gratitude - We are suppose to lay here quietly and placidly as you rip our jugulars out - You have finally shown who you truly are....
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:24 pm

I'm not sure what exactly branan is smoking, but nearly all of the planned PRP changes we have will be backwards compatible. Uru will still be able to read the older PRPs, you just won't be able to produce the latest and greatest PRP files with it. Aside from that, it would be nice if those with older versions of max would be willing to help provide older versions of the plugin.

The main difficulty of making a new PyPRP is the fact that we have at most 5 programmers on a very good day (this never happens), 1 on an average day, and NONE most of the time. The universal hate and fire-throwing helps decrease that to even less. We're already spread extremely thin here with working on client stuff and max stuff. Let's not even talk about how we don't have an acceptable server solution yet.

Thanks,
The guy who has skipped lots of studying for doing Plasma work.

EDIT: Because I missed part of tach's post. libHSPlasma is pretty much "done" except for some PotS<->MOUL<->EoA conversion routines. What really needs attention is the PyPRP2 scripts, the GUIs (there should never be a need to edit an AlcScript file in PyPRP2), and the exporter itself.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Wamduskasapa » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:42 pm

Thank-you for the Clarification - I humbly apologize for blowing my cool - and shooting off my big mouth. But that cut hurt and hurt bad. I spent 3 years saving up to get the software that I thought would finally enable me to write an age. Then to be told that I was to forget it. Well that truely hurt...
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby andylegate » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:56 pm

This is off topic, and really, the thread should go back after this post please.

However, and this is just a suggestion for people, they can seriously consider it, or circular file it:

ALWAYS! Always, remove your hand from your mouse, and STAY AWAY from the "Reply" button, until you have moved away from the computer, gotten a cool drink/cup of coffee/sandwich/gone for a walk or ride....whatever, IF after reading a post, you feel angry! ALWAYS take a breather first BEFORE you reply! ALWAYS re-read the post, and see if it still makes you angry. If it does....take ANOTHER break. Ask yourself why you are so angry. Ask yourself if you might have mis-read what the poster said, or mis-understood what they meant. Remember, not everyone speaks english here, and even if they do, text does not convey tone, infliction or body language. People can be mistaken too. Making mistakes is part of being human. Give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt first. Talk it over with someone else privately, maybe they see the post as something different. I'm not saying that people should let others walk all over them. But what I am saying is that forums and online chat have a very BIG advantage over real life conversations: You DON"T have to hit the Reply button right away. You have the advantage of thinking about what you want to say back first. Use that advantage.

Okay, enough sage wisdom from me. Let us get back to the topic.

Thanks Hoikas for clearing that up. I'm sure Branan either meant something else, or was talking about the long term future, and their will be plenty of time to address any issues.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Calena » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:33 pm

Tsar Hoikas wrote:I'm not sure what exactly branan is smoking, but nearly all of the planned PRP changes we have will be backwards compatible. Uru will still be able to read the older PRPs, you just won't be able to produce the latest and greatest PRP files with it. Aside from that, it would be nice if those with older versions of max would be willing to help provide older versions of the plugin.

The main difficulty of making a new PyPRP is the fact that we have at most 5 programmers on a very good day (this never happens), 1 on an average day, and NONE most of the time. The universal hate and fire-throwing helps decrease that to even less. We're already spread extremely thin here with working on client stuff and max stuff. Let's not even talk about how we don't have an acceptable server solution yet.

Thanks,
The guy who has skipped lots of studying for doing Plasma work.

EDIT: Because I missed part of tach's post. libHSPlasma is pretty much "done" except for some PotS<->MOUL<->EoA conversion routines. What really needs attention is the PyPRP2 scripts, the GUIs (there should never be a need to edit an AlcScript file in PyPRP2), and the exporter itself.


+1 What Tach said (except I can't code)

With resources this thin, some strategic planning and communicating approximate timelines might be helpful. From what I've read, this is supposed to be a collaborative community, not a bunch of individuals building by themselves and for themselves. To collaborate, we need a stable central server. One of the critical ingredients to building quality ages is community feedback. Without a server, no community feedback, everyone is working in the dark. How long would it take to get a stable server up and running with the limited time/number of developers that we have if we left them alone and they made that their primary focus?

Assuming Deep Island is kept running so that the older ages are still available and people can still use that environment to continue to develop and improve their building skills, once the new server is up, then it would make sense to address a means of getting fan-content to the server. What to work on first?

Builders need a compatible, stable client that doesn't need a super dev to install. Again, if builders can't manage the client installation, they can't build (or at least I can't ;) ). And if the builders can't manage the client installation, how can we expect the average fan to install it?

Once both of the above are available, I see one of two choices - either the devs choose to shut up the most people at once, which I think would mean prioritizing getting PyPRP2 working with Blender to port ages to the new software or the devs focus on what they can get up and functional the fastest. Whatever they choose, not everyone will be happy.

If the devs choose to focus on the 3ds Max plug-in first, the 2010 Version can be purchased right now for $260. The 2009 Version is available for $125. Autodesk only provides updates for four years, so the price tag on the software drops like a rock as it ages. Since I don't see them getting any of this functional for several months at least, the price of 3ds Max 2010 will probably take another huge drop by the time it's needed. Building ages is a hobby for all of us. None of us are being paid for this. But I don't know too many hobbies that cost only $100-$200 every several years or so. We're still getting away dirt cheap.

In case anyone is taking a tally, I prefer free open source software that I can keep updated for free. Still, I won't complain if I need a to spend a couple hundred dollars to keep moving forward. It's worth it to me. $3,400 :shock: Not so much.

Whatever the developers do, can we all please remember that we already have perfectly functional and free software to do all of this. And from what I've seen, there are only a very select few builders (and, no, I' don't consider myself in that league) who couldn't use the interim time to improve our skills.

What I am certain will not work is the devs attempting to work on everything at once in a hopeless attempt to please the entire community. So, my question to Hoikas and the developers is - do you have a focused plan and anything remotely resembling a timeline for implementation? If so, could you share that? It would make it much easier for me to plan accordingly if I didn't feel so dang clueless about what to expect and when to expect it.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Paradox » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:21 pm

It seems that everyone missed the part where we cannot build plugins for earlier versions of 3DS Max because we do not have access to them. There's no huge conspiracy to force everyone to upgrade, but unfortunately we can't compile the plugin without having those versions of Max. Since people seem especially concerned about supporting those older versions of Max, perhaps they'd be willing to volunteer to handle building and supporting the plugin for those versions.

As for PyPRP2, it's like Hoikas said. I think right now Hoikas, branan, and myself are the only H'uru people even actively reading the forums; Hoikas is quite busy with school, I'm quite busy with work, and branan is also quite busy; and there are a million things more interesting and rewarding than working on complicated code that resulting in complaining, flaming, trolling, and something close to active discouragement from a variety of people including Cyan.
At the moment I have no plans to work on anything Uru/Plasma-related. That could change in a day, or a year, or never.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Calena » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:31 pm

Thank you Paradox. That actually helps. At least we know where we stand.

I would be happy to donate an older version of Max if anyone is interested in working on it. I'm not certain what versions are even available. I can't code, but this I can do.
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Re: CWE testing builds released

Postby Lontahv » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:22 am

I just wanted to come out of the woodwork and explain PyPRP2's situation from my point of view briefly. Also, I have been keeping up with reading the forums as much as possible, I just haven't felt much like posting recently.

I've been very busy with school this year and have needed to allocate about 80% of my time toward that. The other 20% is used sleeping or relaxing. Since it is very hard to balance courses and programming, naturally the programming suffers. It's not that I've decided to drop PyPRP2 and focus on other programming projects, but it's more a can't-do-right-now situation.

Hoikas hit the nail right on the head with his post explaining the lull in development.
Currently getting some ink on my hands over at the Guild Of Ink-Makers (PyPRP2).
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