Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Sirius » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:09 pm

Ok, the link works. Thank you.

I guess I'll only repeat again what has already been said (and I'm sorry about that), but if the offender can't be seen by other players he/she'll be able to do whatever he/she wants, and everyone is happy.

However, if he/she can see NO ONE (as long as you /shun him), then the only one who won't be happy is the offender and we can hope he'll get lost. This way he won't bother newbies who didn't /shun him.

I don't feel comfortable with the idea that someone can do anything on my avatar while I don't know it, and while other players may see him do his.

BTW, if this is a modification in the xKI python file, will it be on the Offline-KI as well ? In case this happens on the Alcugs shards.

While we wait for this new /shun function (or whatever it will be called), I think the best solutions are ignore list, "only accept PM and KIMails from buddies" check box, and climbing up the tent in Ae'Gura to elude the guy.
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Chacal » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:21 pm

Tsar Hoikas wrote:The process is still somewhat vague. I'll write the code on our fork, and someone (preferably not me) will port it to the OpenUru repositories, and they (OU) will do that silly political dance with Cyan.


This might be the best process for now. You and the other devs are better than anyone else in writing code for MOUL, but other people might be better for, er,
*puts white gloves on* judging what should actually be done to the MOUL production server.

Speaking as a player, this middle step and political dance with Cyan might not be such a bad thing after all. It replaces a bridge that *cough* was burned *cough* ;)

It is also a well-established practice in software engineering that devs should never have any access to the production environment!
The staging process usually puts the QA team in charge of deployment to production.

On a different topic, I'm wondering why Cyan simple doesn't appoint some admins/moderators on the MOUL server? I used to be in charge of several Battlefield servers for a game service provider, and we had about 20 admins. This type of behavior would not have lasted long.
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby diafero » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:52 pm

The change would not automatically end up in the Offline KI, but I could sure backport it, if it affects code that did not change too much from POTS.
Honestly however I did not read through the whole thread, so all I know is that it's about mutual invisibility... doesn't there have to be a GUI to configure that? Or do you plan to use KI commands?
I prefer e-mails to "diafero arcor de" (after adding the at and the dot) over PMs.

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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:44 pm

Chacal wrote:On a different topic, I'm wondering why Cyan simple doesn't appoint some admins/moderators on the MOUL server? I used to be in charge of several Battlefield servers for a game service provider, and we had about 20 admins. This type of behavior would not have lasted long.


Heh, in this community, fans having power over other fans is a sticky subject and generally a bad thing (see: MOUL forum moderators).

diafero wrote:The change would not automatically end up in the Offline KI, but I could sure backport it, if it affects code that did not change too much from POTS.
Honestly however I did not read through the whole thread, so all I know is that it's about mutual invisibility... doesn't there have to be a GUI to configure that? Or do you plan to use KI commands?


I was just going to use the normal ignore list. I don't want to have to add a new folder to everyone's vault and implement the related ptVault APIs.
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Rabenschwinge » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:38 pm

Sirius wrote:I guess I'll only repeat again what has already been said (and I'm sorry about that), but if the offender can't be seen by other players he/she'll be able to do whatever he/she wants, and everyone is happy.

However, if he/she can see NO ONE (as long as you /shun him), then the only one who won't be happy is the offender and we can hope he'll get lost. This way he won't bother newbies who didn't /shun him.

I don't feel comfortable with the idea that someone can do anything on my avatar while I don't know it, and while other players may see him do his.


The problem with this variant is, that it would be very easy for an offender, to attack and molest other people by "shunning" them - so they can´t see anyone. This would be another way of harrassing other people, instead of keeping them from being harrassed.

So, I think, variant 1 would be the better one, imho, though others can still see the offender.
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Chacal » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:46 pm

Tsar Hoikas wrote:Heh, in this community, fans having power over other fans is a sticky subject and generally a bad thing (see: MOUL forum moderators).


Yeah, that.
But then, you call them "ResEng234" and tell them to keep mum about their real identity, and you don't make any public announcement about them.
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Gahlen » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:46 pm

@ Rabenschwinge: The "mutual" nature of this would only apply to two avatars, not to a whole group. Each avatar in a group would have to "disappear" the griefer or be "disappeared" by the griefer in order to make it so that he or she was invisible to everyone. Which, as one thoughtful post over at MOUL has pointed out, could be used to cause trouble in its own right, but surely nothing as traumatic as what we've been seeing recently.

Some time this evening I want to bundle and focus the discussion at MOUL so far. To do that, I need to be clear in my own mind about what is on the table. So three quick questions.

    1. When Adam says he is intending to use the current ignore list, does that mean that he is essentially upgrading the already existing /ignore command, and not creating a new, separate /shun command?

    2. Am I right in assuming that mutual invisibility would make Relto spamming completely impossible (the cursor cannot even by accident or in passing click on the invisible avatar)? What about non-mutual invisibility? Could an invisible avatar still Relto-spam a visible one?

    3. Marten has raised the issue of Age invitations. At the moment, an /ignored avatar vanishes from one's Age visitor lists, but the links on his or her Nexus console to the other person's private Ages are still there. Ideally, one would want an enhanced /ignore or a /shun to revoke invitations. Would this be difficult?
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:57 pm

Quick post because it's getting late...

    1. Correct. The /ignore command (and the in-ki actions as well) will be upgraded. There will be no new command. Adding things to the KI is generally "not fun," so I'd like to try to keep the overall effort-required down on this little project.
    2. Also correct. While it would be nice to figure out why relto spamming works even while ignored (the code indicates it should not), this would be an adequate solution. You can't click on something that's not in the age (ie invisible).
    3. That's possible. However, in practice age invitations and revocations are somewhat buggy due to the way Cyan implemented them*. I will add this support in for kicks, but it won't be instantaneous (this is because of poor Cyan design decisions...) and it may not actually work in the end.

Age invite process:
    1. Create fake text node that no one sees with information about the age. Send it to the invited player.
    2. If the player is logged in, he will receive this text note and add the age to his nexus. Once that is done, he will appear in the age visitors list in the sender's KI. If the player is not online, then his happens when he first logs in (though sometimes it doesn't--no idea why. This should be a server task so that it's nearly-instant and not as failure prone.)
    - Invite revokes happen the same way

I started writing some code over lunch (mostly to avoid doing Physics homework). I should have some time tomorrow after class to do some more serious work.
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Gahlen » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:23 am

Thanks, that's very helpful. :)
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Re: Ignore = inaudible ... and invisible?

Postby Sirius » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:45 pm

Rabenschwinge wrote:The problem with this variant is, that it would be very easy for an offender, to attack and molest other people by "shunning" them - so they can´t see anyone. This would be another way of harrassing other people, instead of keeping them from being harrassed.

So, I think, variant 1 would be the better one, imho, though others can still see the offender.
I guess we didn't understood each other, as Gahlen said I indeed meant the shunned player and the player shunning him would be the only ones not to see each other. Sorry if I didn't explained it clearly enough.

Anyway, thank you Hoikas for doing this.
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