(note: this is following the discussion that started on the COBBS forum here.)
Just to sum up: one of the main point of the Age is that we will have people creating their own buildings (or whatever they want to create) in their shell.
Given that the Age will be quite large, and will be frequently updated, I thought the shells were in separate Blender files and were to be exported to Prp files by the shell authors themselves.
If we have to export the whole Age again each time a shell is updated by its author we will spend *tons* of time on this...
My idea was that every shell would be a Page of the Age and each author would export its own page/shell and we would only have to load it via the .Age file of the Ahra Age. However the tests I have tried so far are unsuccessfull...
Also, if we have to load all the shells into the same blender file (the file for the whole Age) the file we soon be huge and no computer will be able to handle it... As a comparison, the Aegura city file weights over half a million polygons, that is huge, I have a rather good computer and I can barely handle it. And we plan on having an Age bigger. That is why we must go the 'separate blender files & separate exports' way.
Hopefully my tests were wrong and we will soon find the solution. We have to, because if we don't, I don't see how we can pull out the custom shells idea.[/quote]
| QUOTE (Starfyre) | I don't think this is a problem. This is the way I saw it. Ok everything will have to be imported into the Ahra.age. But remember this each area/district/shell will have its own prp file. For example. In Ae'gura you have Ferry Terminal, Takotah, Hall of King's, each has it's own prp file. We will have to keep updating the .age, .sum and .fni files. But I see no reason we have to go and have it set where everyone has to download say City Hub 10 times over when they don't need to. And I don't see that being a problem. As long as only the files that are updated are downloaded it shouldn't get that big. That was one thing I wanted to talk to Dustin about to see if UAM was capable of updating only the files that needed updating.[/quote]
| QUOTE (J'anim Paedet) | I think what he means is that the .blend file will be getting to large to deal with. And I agree: I tried the Au'gura export, and it slowed down my machine enormously. I haven't tried exporting with different .blend files, but I'll get on that as soon as I can.
One alternative might be to build different sections of the city in different layers, and then switch between them only when neccesary. Blender does seem to support a great deal of layers.[/quote]
| QUOTE (Aloys) | Yes, that's what I mean.
I think what we would do is make one separate blender file for each shell which would only contain the shell walls to give the shell author the right dimensions to work with (as well as a default ground and other reference to work with like a dummy avatar and part of the street).
This way the author could build his shell in this file, export it to a Prp file with the right name, and send it to us. We would have to quickly review it to make sure it is ok (no technical issues, right dimensions, etc) and then we would only have to put it online for people to download via UAM as you say.
The blender file could contain default shells walls, but the author could change them as long as the shell still has the right dimensions and doesn't overstep on his neighbour's shell.
There are some more details that would need to be taken care of, but we should first agree on the overall process.[/quote]
| QUOTE (J'anim Paedet) | Well, I tried doing multi-blender exports, and met with no success. I think part of the problem is that the two .blend files may contain information that directly conflict with each other (i.e. one export says some property should go in this place, while another assigns the identical property to somewhere else).
So, what I would recommend, providing one of our esteemed programmers cannot get the process to work (esteemed programmers?), is that one or two people have a full city.blend file, with the entire city to date, and that people working on new shells do so under a new .blend file, just like it would be for multi-blender exports. However, the new .blend file would contain a new page, assigned beforehand (from a list, or something), and the entire contents of the shell would be assigned to that page. Then, once the shell was complete, it would be submitted to someone with the entire city file, and would be imported into the full city.blend. All of the objects present in the new shell could then be exported using standard "single prp" settings, and would be submitted to UAM for download.
All of this is assuming, of course, that we cannot get multi-blender exports to work. At this point, perhaps, we should hold it as a plan B.
At any rate, I like the idea of the generic .blend file with restricting walls and the like. I only wish more people were around for us to ask. Wasn't The Enlightened going to conduct some sort of UU survey?[/quote]
| QUOTE (Robert The Rebuilder) | Here's a suggestion:
Someone maintains a template master blend file for the city. All it contains are the streets surrounding the shells. (And maybe the hub structures, too.) It also contains a page for each shell - but the shell only contains walls.
When someone wants to add their buildings to their shell, they obtain the master blend file. They remove the shell walls from their page, then add their buildings (making sure that the new geometry is on that shell's page). They export just the PRP for their page, and they send the PRP to the keeper of the template master. Rather than loading it up in blender, they just use UruAgeManager to compute the .sum file. Then the age should load up.
One issue is the textures - these exist in their own PRP. The way around this is that each shell artist submits all their textures to the keeper of the template master, who adds them to the blend file. Then the shell artist can reference these textures when they construct their shell.[/quote]
| QUOTE (Robert The Rebuilder) | I did an experiment, and it worked! Here's how I tested it:
- I started with an age (rtr_age0.blend). It has 5 pages. Page 0 is the terrain skin, a large square with 4 holes cut into it. Interpret this to be the city streets. Pages 1-4 have just one large block each that fills in a different hole in the square. Interpret this to be the shell.
- I exported the age as rtr_age0.age (choosing the "All as full age" option) and put the .age, .sum, .fni, and .prp files in my dat folder, then I registered the age with UruAgeManager. I ran URU and successfully walked around this test age.
- I made a copy of the blend file, rtr_age0_page1.blend. This is intended for the owner of shell 1 to modify. In this file, I removed the block sitting in page 1's hole, and I replaced it with a bumpy grid. Interpret this to be the shell's contents: a building, environment, whatever. Note: this still has the same age sequence prefix as rtr_age0.blend
- I exported this age as rtr_age0.age (again, choosing the "All as full age" option) . I then put only the page 1 PRP file (rtr_age0_District_page1.prp) into the dat folder.
- I ran UruAgeManager and used it to recompute the .sum file for rtr_age0. I ran URU and successfully walked around the modified age, where the cube was replaced by the bumpy grid.
So, you can have people make their own modifications and submit only their PRPs. You don't need to open up the whole age in Blender.
A variation on this would be to use textures. So, the shell artist would send the textures ahead of time to the city keeper, who adds the textures to the main city file (e.g. he creates little cubes somewhere out of sight, then textures each cube with the textures submitted by the shell artist). The city keeper then saves the blend file and sends it back to the shell artist, who modifies it and adds their shell's artwork, then exports the age and sends only the page's PRP file to the city keeper. The city keeper re-computes the sum file, and the age is ready for shared exploration.
Here are links to the test files I used, so that you can repeat the experiment yourselves:
rtr_age0.blend
rtr_age0_page1.blend
[/quote]
| QUOTE (The Enlightened) | Thats some great news. One of the key concepts of this project was to have explorer artwork within the city.
[/quote]
| QUOTE (J'anim Paedet) | Oh, great news, then! Much simpler this way!
I'm going to try some of the variations in my spare time. Haven't got any as of right now, but soon...[/quote]
| QUOTE (Aloys) | haa so that was the solution. Looking bakc at it it was the most simple way to do it, but I didn't try it.. Good work. smile.gif
About your textures however I don't understand. If we use this method the textures will end up in a separate prp right? The problem as I see it is precisely that (at least right now) all textures can only be exported in a dedicated age_district_texture.prp, which raise issues for us.
We need to have all textures associated with a shell to be either 1) in a prp of their own or 2) in the same prp as the shell itself. (that what I though the 'export all as single prp' option was for, but it seems I was wrong)
If we put together all the textures of the Age in a single prp that means that the prp will grow larger and larger, we will need shell owners to send us their textures as separate files and update the prp manually each time, and the game will have to load a huge amount of data all at once when we first link to the Age.[/quote]
| QUOTE (Robert The Rebuilder) | Aloys:
Unfortunately, the URU/Plasma age design forces all textures to be placed in age_District_Texture.prp.
Note that even if the textures were somehow stored in each page's PRP, it would not affect the load time since all of an age's PRPs are loaded when someone links to an age. So, it does not affect the load time whether the textures are in each page's PRP or in the centralized one.
I agree it will be a pain for each shell artist to submit their textures ahead of time, and to consequently update the age_District_Texture.prp. With a little practice, though, we can hopefully minimize this pain.[/quote]
| QUOTE (Zrax) | Actually that's not really true... Although all of the ages in the original game store (most of) their textures in the _Textures.prp file, the game will actually load them from any loaded PRP file... Now, I'll grant you that the PRP Blender Plugin really doesn't *support* putting textures in other PRP files, but I can guarantee you that the game has no limitations set upon PRP filenames for loading them. I would, however, recommend that if there are a lot of textures, that you keep them in various AgeGlobal (type 0x08) pages. Oh, and for those that don't believe me, I did actually test this by taking an age and putting half of its textures into an _Textures2.prp file set as an AgeGlobal, and it worked just fine  .[/quote]
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J'anim Paedet
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 by Robert The Rebuilder » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:33 pm
Thank you for the information, Zrax! I believe that in order to support simultaneous development of an age, we should place the textures in the page's PRP file rather than a shared global file.
So, here's a proposed simplified process:
- The "city master" maintains the city blend file, which has just the streets and stubs for each page (one page per shell, and a page for the hub)
- A page artist gets a copy of the blend file from the city master and adds the art for the shell, assigning each object to that page.
- Using a modified PRP Blender Plugin, the page artist exports the age, which stores the textures in the _District_PageN.prp file
- The page artist sends the PRP file to the city master
- The city master adds the PRP file to the bundle containing the age files, making the age available for preview by all
If you all agree on this process, I can make the necessary modifications to the PRP Blender Plugin. I was thinking of adding a flag in alcconfig.py that controls whether to put the textures in the page's PRP. What do you think?
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Robert The Rebuilder
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by Aloys » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:24 am
That's exactly how I envisionned this process. 
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Aloys
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by J'anim Paedet » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:30 pm
Sounds good! This means that soon, new artists can start to create their own shells.
Great to see the ball start to roll again!
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J'anim Paedet
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by Robert The Rebuilder » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:08 pm
Update on the status of this:
I have successfully exported a PRP with the textures located within the PRP itself and not the global age_District_Textures.PRP file. Very soon, I will find a way to make this latest version of the PRP Blender Plugin available to you all, so that the shell creation can commence as soon as possible. Thanks again to Zrax for the idea.
Stay tuned!
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Robert The Rebuilder
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by Aloys » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:08 am
That's great news! I have furthered my work on the city 'ground' (I should really find another name for that  'structure'? framework? walls?) and I have now the 156 shells in what I consider to be a near-final form (that means: modeled to scale, lit, and UV mapped), and if you all approve them then I'll post the blender file and we can indeed start making shells. Good times ahead! B)
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Aloys
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by Besharen » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:57 pm
[quote="Robert The Rebuilder"]So, here's a proposed simplified process:
- The "city master" maintains the city blend file, which has just the streets and stubs for each page (one page per shell, and a page for the hub)
- A page artist gets a copy of the blend file from the city master and adds the art for the shell, assigning each object to that page.
- Using a modified PRP Blender Plugin, the page artist exports the age, which stores the textures in the _District_PageN.prp file
- The page artist sends the PRP file to the city master
- The city master adds the PRP file to the bundle containing the age files, making the age available for preview by all I have one major concern with this plan: Everyone models differently; everyone?s style is different. Also, more importantly, is the skill of the modeller. I think that if we have only one person doing an entire shell themselves that it will not look very good because the quality will change from one shell to another. Imagine walking through a beautiful area one minute, than turning the corner and entering an area with poor texturing and poor modelling. It would be very disorienting for the player. Personally, I think it would be better if the work was split up within the shells. This would probably make things a lot more complicated to organize and keep in order, but ultimately I think it would be better. Or, if we still want to make the shells individually, at least some objects should be in several shells, so there is some congruity. Oh, and I have next week off from school, so if we can have it ready by then I'd have lots of time to do some modelleing.
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Besharen
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by Aloys » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:15 am
Yes, style and quality will certainly vary a lot fron one shell to another, but that IHMO part of what makes this project interesting. The goal with Ahra Pahts is not only to make one beautifully crafted Age but also to provide a place for people to build their own stuff. So even if some of the shells are not of the greatest quality that's part of the thing. At least the city will certainly look very cosmopolitan. at least some objects should be in several shells, so there is some congruity.
That's an interesting idea; objects like doors, windows, plants.. ? I'll do a bit of polish work on the blender file of the shells and I'll try and release it this weekend so we can start working on those.
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Aloys
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by Besharen » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:41 am
[quote="Aloys"]That's an interesting idea; objects like doors, windows, plants.. ?
Yes, things like that.
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Besharen
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by Robert The Rebuilder » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:28 pm
OK - the new PRP Blender Plugin with per-page texture export is now available. Visit this thread for details. Let's build a city!!!
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Robert The Rebuilder
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