From my hands

[D'nial]

So...basically what you're saying is rather than take the information you have now, all the years of work, and put it towards the next evolutionary step in the program that is Uru. And MOUL is the next step, it's the updated version like it or not, you'd rather stick with the old version that you know how to work with ease...because you don't want to work? So what you're saying is you're lazy?

Viewed in the harsh light of an Existentialist analysis, this is, I suppose, a perfectly valid argument. Integration of current tools into MOULa could indeed be accomplished if developers would simply put forth more effort.

However, if we are accepting arguments that these problems can be solved by fulfilling our true potential (which I do not dispute), an equally valid point is this: why haven't you, Chloe, enhanced your own understanding of Uru's inner workings to the point that you yourself can achieve the goals for which you so fervently advocate? That is not to imply that you have been morally in the wrong by refusing to do so, of course. Such a refusal would simply show that you, like the other developers of GoW tools, and indeed like me, are comfortable with leaving Uru's fate to chance up to a certain point. If you want something done right, do it yourself, as it were.

[Paradox]

PyPRP2 is designed in such a way that the same blender file could be exported for both MOUL and PotS without changing any settings. Because it is based on libHSPlasma, you would just select a version when you export. Features that don't exist for that version would be skipped on export (grass wave animations, dynamic camera maps, etc.)

The main stall with PyPRP2 is Blender 2.5's unstable API. Every time we get something working, Blender slightly modifies their API and we have to adapt our code. There's also the part where we're trying to do stuff that nobody else has attempted, and even the Blender developers aren't sure how to answer some of our questions
At the moment, PyPRP2 can export geometry with vertex paint and basic textures. Alpha paint is working, but sometimes the blending isn't handled correctly. There's no image module for py3k (Python 3), so the process of getting textures exported is a bit of a hack, but hopefully that will change (I've started a wrapper around devIL). Basic collision works, and you can add a link-in point. I believe basic lamps (no shadows) are also working, but I haven't tested them myself.

[GPNMilano]

However, if we are accepting arguments that these problems can be solved by fulfilling our true potential (which I do not dispute), an equally valid point is this: why haven't you, Chloe, enhanced your own understanding of Uru's inner workings to the point that you yourself can achieve the goals for which you so fervently advocate? That is not to imply that you have been morally in the wrong by refusing to do so, of course. Such a refusal would simply show that you, like the other developers of GoW tools, and indeed like me, are comfortable with leaving Uru's fate to chance up to a certain point. If you want something done right, do it yourself, as it were.

And who is to say I have not D'nial? Do you understand how many hours a week I devote to my work and keeping content flowing? Do you understand that I developed PyPRP for hours and hours on end? That there is a version of PyPRP that has yet to even be attempted to be added to the truck that is capable of creating all but a few things that are not in the Cyan Plugin (clothes and Particles, and even those I started on). You know how much of tha twork went into the last release of PyPRP. Zero. It's still sitting there, in my repository, because no one who has commit rights to the trunk has bothered to even try to add it into a release. There's so much additional material support, sound support, GUI support, that just lounges in my repository because no one has yet to go through and add it in. EVEN after I have started threads discussing the possibility of doing so? And everytime somoene asks "can we do this yet?" I have to say "One version can, but it's not supported yet by the trunk cause no one with the ability to commit to the trunk has bothered to add it in."

[Robert The Rebuilder]

I'm also curious why your mods have not made it into the trunk yet, GPNMilano. Is it because it isn't backwardly compatible with our current ages? Or are the people with write access to trunk currently unavailable?

Regarding talcum: if it is up and working, I'd love to hear about it and see what Cyan thinks about it - but only via email. If they nix it, I wouldn't want it to be shut down; I'd rather use it on the side. So, I don't think posting about talcum on MOUL forums is the right way to go.

[Paradox]

[T]here is a version of PyPRP that has yet to even be attempted to be added to the truck that is capable of creating all but a few things that are not in the Cyan Plugin (clothes and Particles, and even those I started on). You know how much of tha twork went into the last release of PyPRP. Zero. It's still sitting there, in my repository, because no one who has commit rights to the trunk has bothered to even try to add it into a release. There's so much additional material support, sound support, GUI support, that just lounges in my repository because no one has yet to go through and add it in. EVEN after I have started threads discussing the possibility of doing so? And everytime somoene asks "can we do this yet?" I have to say "One version can, but it's not supported yet by the trunk cause no one with the ability to commit to the trunk has bothered to add it in."

I also have a branch with similar changes and features and new ways of doing things. The main reason none of this is merged is because it breaks existing Ages by changing how certain buttons are interpreted. The last time we released PyPRP, we changed PassIndex and the material ZOffset. Age builders are still complaining, and I do understand their frustration; but it's also frustrating for the devs who find a better way of doing things, but can't implement it without breakage.

The unfortunate part is that as these branches gain more features, they become even less likely to be merged because there are even more incompatible changes.

GPN, I know you asked me to look over your branch, and I'm sorry that I haven't been able to do that. I seem to recall The.Modificator mentioning that some of the variables in the GUI classes were out of order (copied from the exe vtable order, rather than the order they are actually stored in the data). Given the lack of active PyPRP developers these days, I'm in favour of giving everyone with a contrib folder access to trunk... D'Lanor also has some fixes that should definitely be merged (and don't break existing stuff).

[D'nial]

And everytime somoene asks "can we do this yet?" I have to say "One version can, but it's not supported yet by the trunk cause no one with the ability to commit to the trunk has bothered to add it in."

Indeed, you have contributed much to the GoW tools. Despite this, you seem to be reliant upon people with a particular skill set, but insufficient motivation. If you yourself are motivated enough, I would suggest developing the aforementioned skill set.

[ZURI]

Sorry to chime in as a mere Rookie here... but this is bothering me a bit. It's a G*d'damned shame that the devs in this community are not noticed, reflected upon, or respected as much as "I" think they should be. I only know enough about programming and *principles* to be dangerous.

However, knowing what I do, I realize the entirity (sp) of the amount of work envolved. You folks are "heros" in my book! I give you all *Kudos* and *high-fives* for what you've already done. My tiny little corner of this digital universe wouldn't be possible without your endless hours of work. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

On the other hand, on an area that I can *indeed* comment on, is the amount of time/work involved in *writing* ages. I currently have 2 ages in working order that are not currently released. I figure upon generalized estimates that I have around 900-1000 actual working hours involved in them... and a few others that aren't near *release condition.*

I'm not bragging here. Not a bit..., but what I'm getting at, is every bit of this process requires tons of work. Everytime I read about changes to the trunk, new versions of PyPRP, and development with 3DS Max - my heart flutters. I personnally have no intentions of using Max. Thank you Chloe for presenting offers to multiple Writers to help convert their ages. I applaud you for that. Good looking out!

However, I (and I'm 100% sure I'm not alone here) and others are hesistant about PyPRP2 and Blender 2.5(6) because of the changes to the GUI, API, and other inevitable changes that will take place. I, for one, have a great amount of curiousity about the future of PyPRP, and hope that development continues on it.

Along the same note, I understand why devs are holding back on it's continuance. Quite frankly, I don't blame you. I'd be a bit P.O.ed about the lack of response from Cyan as well. If anyone can PM me info about current Alcugs shards, please do so.

Chloe, me loves you. I admire you work and especially your enthusiasm! We've spoken in the cavern a few times, and I can assure you - I'll be here until the bitter, bitter end (hopefully there isn't one.)

However, to get to the point - what can folks such as myself do to help with this? I spend time in the Cavern, and spend as much time as possible talking with people about writing ages. I've even had people give my KI to others, who have messaged me with questions about Writing. In my heart of hearts, I feel I'm doing the right thing by being public with my work - and encouraging others to become interested - but I don't know if I'm actually helping.

[diafero]

ZURI, I would say you are. It's not worth trying to do something you can't do - we all have the biggest impact if we do what we can do best, I think. Which is why I didn't try to write an age...

[Chacal]

I just want new Ages, with beautiful graphics, awesome music and sounds, maybe good puzzles occasionally. With UruCC, and an Alcugs shard for showing Uru to friends and exploring with them, I'm all set.

Like everyone else, I don't go much on MOULa. The social part of Uru has never much attracted me. I despised the storylines in all on-line incarnations. I think Yeesha, the Bahro, the DRC are all unneeded baggage.

Also I still want to add things to Cyan's Ages and the City. I have stopped for lack of time, but I hope to come back to it again.

[Jahmen]

I went throu the posts and grabbed some lines out to generate the basic ideas and feelings and here they are...

For now, we keep waiting... but maybe someday you have to accept that the story's over.
I will agree that, as far as I can see, Cyan is going to be stuck in a rut until . . .
I don't question that Uru has been running out of steam for a long time, but . . .
very small number of regular visitors, it seems to have all died and fizzled out.
Hope never dies, but maybe at some point it shrinks so little that it's not worth it anymore.
Simply put, I just don't care about Online Uru anymore.
And some of us may not love Cyan's actions, some may not love all of those out there in the MOUL community.
Sure, we're all pissed at Uru for imploding, and burnt out on trying to keep it afloat.
We are definitely losing people.
Cyan's actions of late are not having a positive effect at all >.<
Cyan is /driving people away/.
But for this to actually work out, I think we need support from either Cyan or the majority of the community, and I doubt the latter would happen without the first.
We are being held back by Cyan and vocal people in the community. To be honest? It is them who are killing Uru, more surely than the hacking that is often rallied against. Uru is dying an agonising death, of slow, torturous stagnation.
"HACKING MO:UL" You can start building servers now, and . . .
So as long as MOUL is closed-source, there is *no* advantage whatsoever using MOUL,
I really don't see a good reason to start hacking on MOUL.
Sure, if we had the source, that'd beat everything, but until we have nothing but binaries (and for the server, not even them) - a promise is just not enough, not after how we got treated.
or are willing to work with a pirated version.
I'm just suggesting we continue to push forward while we wait for Cyan to fulfill it's next promise of the server code/binaries and the client source.
I don't put trust in the company, the company has to abide by what it's legal department suggests.
No, I have reason to believe they will break that promise.
Lack of communication with Cyan has always been an issue.
it time that we escape from the cage that Pavlov has confined us to, and cut Cyans apron strings, ISN”T IT TIME
And given how the community is these days, it's a non existent thing for me.
Very few in the community understand the true impact the dirty dirty hackers have had on this community.
I think it iMe? Bitter? Why yes, yes I am.
is time for GoW to have their own shard/server and to hell with everyone else.
I'd be a bit P.O.ed about the lack of response from Cyan as well.

Given that Cyan started, created and built an amazing legacy with all the Myst games and MOUL, I am going to have to side with them and I will tell you why. If I and my brother created what they did, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to give it away. And if I was going to give it into open source, I would take all the time it takes to make sure it didn't get carried off by others. Carried off by others my best guess would be those hacking, setting up their own servers and wanting to take it unto themselves as they see fit. It is clear enough that there is much more to MOUL, again open sourcing at some point than most of us can really know. I only know that most things in my life that I take on to set my mind to doing never go as planned. I always have to be ready to compromise and rethink matters many times over to get it done. Sometimes the adversities make it better than I had planned and hoped for. Other times I am disappointed in how it comes out. My dad always told me “soon enough, if right”. The only thing hurrying ever did for me on a project was put it further behind and cost more, than if I had just taken the time. I learned over the years that those who want you to hurry up, are the ones who usually have the least to lose if it goes wrong. CYAN may never get circumstances to line up well enough to get open source MOUL going. I only know that if it were me, I wouldn't give out anything until I knew I could keep it from being . . .