From my hands

[Whilyam]

Let's try and cut down on the anti-Cyan rhetoric. If many are desperate to be rid of them then I would advise them to be so, and stop caring about what people say on an internet forum or the actions of a tiny game developer. However, I will comment on one thing -

We hide what we hide, because we have to, be it from protecting our projects, or from getting away from the Believers of Blue.

This is a counter productive view. If all modding communities were as paranoid about project-protection and the opinions of irrelevent voices on the internet as this, we would never see amazing modding projects come to fruition. You need community cohesion, and refusal to even consider being more open in development is not going to help towards that cause whatsoever.

If all modding communities had such tone-deaf companies supporting them, they would all be like the Uru community. The fact is that Cyan has dropped the ball (or never picked it up). Look at the Polycount packs coming to Team Fortress 2 for an excellent example of a company working WITH its community, not against it.

Also, you're a complete fool for your last sentence. Your ignorance of the issue is mind-meltingly astounding. Reading what you say is like getting hit by the Stupidmobile. I could go on...

We ARE open in development. Claiming that keeping storylines secret until they're ready so you don't spoil the story, or not posting about development on the MOUL forums (where it's banned) is somehow a bad thing (that we need to fix right now or we're arrogant selfish blah blah blah) is just plain stupid. If all you're going to do here is spout your ignorant opinion about other people's business, kindly leave. If you're here to actually do some work, then get to it.

Edit: Because I left out a crucial part of one of my sentences. Also: Your mother.

[Lontahv]

Let's try and cut down on the anti-Cyan rhetoric. If many are desperate to be rid of them then I would advise them to be so, and stop caring about what people say on an internet forum or the actions of a tiny game developer. However, I will comment on one thing -

We hide what we hide, because we have to, be it from protecting our projects, or from getting away from the Believers of Blue.

This is a counter productive view. If all modding communities were as paranoid about project-protection and the opinions of irrelevent voices on the internet as this, we would never see amazing modding projects come to fruition. You need community cohesion, and refusal to even consider being more open in development is not going to help towards that cause whatsoever.

The fact is, as it stands this level of spittle in the community is as helpful to the ultimate goal - a viable open source version of Uru - as snowshoes are to crossing the Sahara. There seems to be little point in this entire operation if outspoken members of the community remains selfish, full of resent, paranoid and arrogant. These are strong words, but they in my opinion aptly describe the greatest problem - that people are giving up and leaving not because of stagnation or Cyan's actions, but because they're sick to the back teeth of the endless resentment that hallmarks this community. What's the point contributing when everybody is out for a fight? Does this community merely exist as a platform for flame wars?

Amazing modding projects have come into fruition for the Uru modding community. In fact, modding community is unexpectedly healthy for being so small and getting so much resistance from Cyan. It is true that there are outspoken members of the community that are selfish, full of resent, paranoid, and arrogant; usually, they are the ones who are resistant to fan content of any sort.

[Tweek]

Let's try and cut down on the anti-Cyan rhetoric. If many are desperate to be rid of them then I would advise them to be so, and stop caring about what people say on an internet forum or the actions of a tiny game developer. However, I will comment on one thing -

Well I did stop caring, but because I have doesn't mean others will.

We hide what we hide, because we have to, be it from protecting our projects, or from getting away from the Believers of Blue.

This is a counter productive view. If all modding communities were as paranoid about project-protection and the opinions of irrelevent voices on the internet as this, we would never see amazing modding projects come to fruition. You need community cohesion, and refusal to even consider being more open in development is not going to help towards that cause whatsoever.

Well of course it is counter productive, that's part of the problem.
But the other points I listed are still valid, some may be fine including others into their projects, I'm not, I like my secrecy, I like protecting my stories until I am ready to reveal them. There are parts to them that it really would be better to see yourself than be told about.
I remember back in 03, walking through Kadish and seeing the vault for the first time and thinking "holy crap..." I want to have those moments in my content, giving out details will give those moments away.

The fact is, as it stands this level of spittle in the community is as helpful to the ultimate goal - a viable open source version of Uru - as snowshoes are to crossing the Sahara. There seems to be little point in this entire operation if outspoken members of the community remains selfish, full of resent, paranoid and arrogant. These are strong words, but they in my opinion aptly describe the greatest problem - that people are giving up and leaving not because of stagnation or Cyan's actions, but because they're sick to the back teeth of the endless resentment that hallmarks this community. What's the point contributing when everybody is out for a fight? Does this community merely exist as a platform for flame wars?

Actually snow shoes crossing the sahara would be very helpful as it would reduce the friction and make walking easier instead of your feet slipping into the sand, but I get what you were aiming at with that.

Let me pull out a book, called the history of Tweek and this community.
I started floating around this community in 1998. I started a website, this website got bigger and became known as The D'ni Jazz Club. After RivenGuild collapsed it along with MC, UO and DPWR were the go to places for the community. I gave out information, screenshots, video files, sound files of upcoming games. When Uru was up I beta tested Ubiru, I rehearsal tested, I joined the newly formed Guild of Greeters and aided people in the cavern (and later worked on their site and designed the forum layout that is still pretty much used to this day). I was one of those picked by Ubisoft and Cyan to form the MystWorlds Site Council. Who's goal it was to pass on news to fans, act as liaisons between fans and the companies, arrange contests, puzzles, grassroots efforts, designed webkits for people to download.
Working with Sheldon and Twigg on their grassroots puzzle sites that everyone loved.
I travelled to London to do reports on Uru showcasing at ECTS before it came out, covering the Myst 4 Exhibit when Myst 4 came out, organizing interviews with Cyan folk, with Jack Wall..
I built Beneath, and the Firemarble community sites, I was for a brief time a mod at DPWR.
I ran IC fan stories on UU when it first set up, when MOUL came back again I tested that, and rehearsal tested again for it. When the DRC Liaisons came up I was one of them.
I served for several years as interns for Cyan, building the MOUL site, keeping it running, building the Cosmic Osmo site, fighting for new projects for Cyan to help give the community..

But I am apparently selfish? Because after 12 years...I got sick of the crap?
Know what happened to the projects we were trying to get released? Nothing...why? Cause Cyan were, once again quiet.
Know what happened when MOUL came out and I released screenshots given to me by GameTap like I did in the old days of DJC? I got yelled at for NDA breaches, yelled at in PM's knickers got twisted over whether I had permission from Cyan or not..
What happened as when I was a DRCL....hell everyone knows that story..
What happened when I tried setting up a Guild of Fine Artists...same thing as any other time interacting with the community, certain people kicked up a stink.
I comment about veralun's poor moderation skills, skills that have for a number of years been upsetting a lot of people, and get demoted and brushed off for it...
So why should I continue trying to help those who are like that? Why do you even think people who are bitter and resentful exist? You're right why should we contribute? But don't think for one moment that their crap doesn't stink either..

Yes I'm bitter, I'm resentful, after 12 years of the same ole crap, who wouldn't be.

But don't ever, call me selfish..

[Whilyam]

I'd also like to share my contempt at you for calling me selfish. I think my previous post pretty much covers that.

[N. Sigismund]

Glancing back over this, I think I've managed to completely miss out mentioning what my original point was in typical posting frenzy. I am going to stand by my comments on the bad eggs of the community but I must stress that I did not pick out any names on any of the sides that appear to have been drawn. But if I may explain why I used the selfish remark - it's selfish to sit on an internet forum endlessly arguing and picking fights, and selfish to not be willing to compromise or help others.

If I simplify openness to a willingness to make ages released open source - ie the developer is willing to give out their production files as well as the age itself - as well as a general tone shift towards inter-developer chatter rather than the endless rhetoric that I think everyone knows is a dead topic in the end - can we come to a conclusion that this is a good idea? To use Tweek's recent Fehnir's House age as an example, providing the production files for public viewing will allow people developing (although I don't know if Tweek developed using Max or Blender) to incorporate the really good ideas he had into their own ages, thus improving everyone's ages.

Also, Whilyam, your mother right back at you.

(By the way, I don't actually mean to step on people's toes by standing on a soap box. So please don't take any of these posts to heart.)

[Whilyam]

But if I may explain why I used the selfish remark - it's selfish to sit on an internet forum endlessly arguing and picking fights, and selfish to not be willing to compromise or help others.

So we're not willing to compromise or help people now, too? Your argument just keeps getting better! Too bad you're still dumb as dirt.

If I simplify openness to a willingness to make ages released open source - ie the developer is willing to give out their production files as well as the age itself - as well as a general tone shift towards inter-developer chatter rather than the endless rhetoric that I think everyone knows is a dead topic in the end - can we come to a conclusion that this is a good idea?

It's not that simple. Some aspects of an Age can/should be shared (textures are an example of this) but there are other elements (music linked to a specific area, models of the entire Age, story) that should not be used elsewhere because of their ties to my area. For example, It would be odd (and wrong) for someone to use the Kadish Gallery theme in their Age.

In Tweek's example, I wouldn't mind seeing the models for the bowls and vases and some of the textures, but I wouldn't want to have the source texture for the artwork since that would be useless to me and any use I DID put it to would cheapen it.

In the end, people should have the choice to release stuff. Not be told that they're lazy/selfish/whatever.

[kaelisebonrai]

Glancing back over this, I think I've managed to completely miss out mentioning what my original point was in typical posting frenzy. I am going to stand by my comments on the bad eggs of the community but I must stress that I did not pick out any names on any of the sides that appear to have been drawn. But if I may explain why I used the selfish remark - it's selfish to sit on an internet forum endlessly arguing and picking fights, and selfish to not be willing to compromise or help others.

If I simplify openness to a willingness to make ages released open source - ie the developer is willing to give out their production files as well as the age itself - as well as a general tone shift towards inter-developer chatter rather than the endless rhetoric that I think everyone knows is a dead topic in the end - can we come to a conclusion that this is a good idea? To use Tweek's recent Fehnir's House age as an example, providing the production files for public viewing will allow people developing (although I don't know if Tweek developed using Max or Blender) to incorporate the really good ideas he had into their own ages, thus improving everyone's ages.

Also, Whilyam, your mother right back at you.

(By the way, I don't actually mean to step on people's toes by standing on a soap box. So please don't take any of these posts to heart.)

*falls over laughing*

I did /exactly/ what you proposed, several years ago, and guess what? There was no interest in it whatsoever. Others have done /exactly/ that, years ago, and there was no interest, and I know I've never seen any of those pieces used.

In the end, releasing things as modders resources (seeing as you are so content on telling us how other modding communities do things, we might as well start using the proper terminology) depends on there being interest in using them.

However, if you want "open source", you're going to have a lot more trouble, when it comes to content. I think you'll find that open source isn't necessarily possible, with a number of textures and Ages, etc. I think you'll also find that open sourcing things is the author's choice, not the decision of some person who wants to tell them they are selfish. I'm very much an advocate of open source, having at one stage been a member of the FreeSoftwareFoundation, and I am especially an advocate of OpenContent and FreeArt. You will find, however, that calling the creators of content selfish, etc, that you will /not/ win any friends, and, ultimately, your attempt to encourage open content will fail. horribly.

Note that we are quite happy to help - that what these forums are for - we do not, however, read minds. If you need help? make a topic about it.

I don't like your chances of getting help after saying we're selfish, however - but, hey, Jamey and Justin said far worse about us, and they still get help. =)

[Paradox]

This thread is like a living museum of so many thing wrong with the Uru community...

[BAD]

This thread is like a living museum of so many thing wrong with the Uru community...

Agreed. I may print it out and frame it.

[Tomala]

mmmm... Snacks and threads like these go hand in hand.