From my hands

[semplerfi]

thanks for sharin' the popcorn.

[N. Sigismund]

I'm getting the feeling that Paradox's comment is partially or totally related to me poking a couple of people in this thread into vitrol, so I'm going to go and get some screenshots for my production thread rather than continue.

I still think OS should be embraced by the *entire* community in its most open form - that of sharing everything you legally can pertaining to age creation. Providing links to download models, textures and entire ages for use in your own projects seems to me the best way of encouraging everyone to get more involved. But to keep things short - this sort of thread, where people like myself get drawn into pointless arguments over nothing because others frame everything in a "Us vs Them" environment need to end before any more progress can be made. What's the point developing anything when the only comments you recieve are drowned out by a bunch of children beating each other to death in your thread?

I'm sure this thread will stagger on for a few more posts, probably directed at me because I dared to call people out on the internet. Such is life.

[Aloys]

Oh hey, I'm totally just discovering this thread now. Why don't the Dev Journals threads appear in the 'active topics' list? :/
Anyway.

Diminishing motivation? check.
Diminishing community? check.
Diminishing Cyan communication? check.
Rising community bickerings? check.
All of the above going on for the last 3 years? check.
What else is new?
We are in a crappy situation; and there are only two ways to get out of this: Cyan, or ourselves. Cyan is doing whatever they can to survive; and OSuru is obviously at the bottom of that list. And getting ourselves out of our hole? We're too small of a community, with declining interest.. There's always the possibility of a couple individuals releasing a powerful project that would get everyone pumped again. But it'd have to be a great thing. And even then, you can't just create motivation or energy out of nothing. You need a driving force; like it or hate it this community's driving force is Cyan; and it's gone.

GoW projects are logically following that movement, and if it wasn't for the DLC, we wouldn't have much new stuff. The unfortunate truth is that, as Chloe rightfully state, there is nothing stopping us from working. So what? I guess some of us have been here for 'too long'. And the generally crappy atmosphere and lack of recognition has brought us down to complete apathy (or worst: hostility). Are we dragging others down? To some extent, yes. This community needs new blood. Too bad it ain't gonna happen..

Personally my motivation has been going downhill since MOULa. I have logged in there exactly twice; I found it more demotivating than anything else. I can enjoy ghost towns, but only up to a certain point. These days I'm slowly turning into spectator mode.. Even some of the more civilized and interesting discussions at MOUL forums I have a hard time participating in now; because we are just going in circles at this point. I would just like to find the motivation/energy to complete two projects (DLC, and new Ahra Pahts content).

Side note:

think that fandom doesn't need to be predicated on something ongoing from Cyan--maybe it even reduces the pressure on creators to just be writing stories, not figuring out how to be part of The Big Story. Goodness knows Tolkien fandom will still go on regardless of whether a new movie comes out, for example

That's an interesting example but I see a couple key differences:
1) The number of tolkien followers is probably much bigger than that of the Uru/Myst followers.
2) Developping 'Tolkien' content is probably much faster than developping Ages. Developping Ages or tools can take months; and that is the core of our activity. I'm not sure what the Tolkien peeps do; but I'd guess that most of their projects are much less time consuming. Faster projects mean more projects, more motivation, more activity, more people.
3) Our community has gone through some difficult times with the successive death/rebirths of Uru (and Cyan). And because of this many people are tired/bitter/bored.

[Jamey]

May as well give my two-cents.

I'm hoping that a proper balance of power between Cyan and the community can be achieved through Open Source Uru. I want to see both Cyan strong, and the community strong. Working together to improve MOULa for everyone. Here's to hoping.

I don't like your chances of getting help after saying we're selfish, however - but, hey, Jamey and Justin said far worse about us, and they still get help. =)

When it comes to age creation, I enjoy working with people here and helping on that matter, because I'm hoping that's one topic my opinion won't likely get bashed. I like to make ages, and I enjoy working with people who like to make ages.

I know a lot of people disagree with my views on Cyan, how Uru should be run, etc. Some would say I hate certain people in the community; I don't. I don't like making enemies; it's too stressful. I just disagree with their views sometimes, so I try to focus on the things we do have in common; ages creation. Hopefully that'll be enough, and getting help won't be dependent or judged upon some of my beliefs.

Shorah B'shemtee, and here's to hoping the future is a bright for everyone

[rivenwanderer]

2) Developing 'Tolkien' content is probably much faster than developing Ages. Developing Ages or tools can take months; and that is the core of our activity. I'm not sure what the Tolkien peeps do; but I'd guess that most of their projects are much less time consuming. Faster projects mean more projects, more motivation, more activity, more people.

The other two points are definitely valid, and it's quite likely that the *average* Tolkien fan project has a shorter development time--but check out "The Hunt for Gollum" some time if you want to see an inspiring amount of fan effort and impressive resulting project

[Jennifer_P]

Revive Ages of Ilithid maybe?

Saw this and wanted to comment--we're revived already. And happily enough things have been going steadily uphill, most particularly over the last few months since we switched to a dedicated project management system.
Now if you guys remember, some years back the Ilathid project was brought to a standstill thanks to the actions of one malicious individual. The decay and stagnation that resulted from the loss of bunches of project files and the difficulty in getting the ball rolling again was such that 95% of the team left, including all but one of the programmers. When I think about this period in our history it makes me think of what's going on here and now with the Uru community. The symptoms are the same: people drifting away--participation diminishing--hope fading--general pall of gloom. And you know what? Not one of the 95% of the devs who left have returned. They moved on to other things and never came back. We still have the one programmer who has the specialized knowledge to develop our custom engine, and if he left we could always move to Pipmak or some other system. But what will happen if/when our Uru hackers start dropping out and take the experience that took them years to build up with them? Well, let me just say that it would be very, very hard to replace them. So what to do? Wait till it gets better, or till Cyan comes to save us? That's exactly how Ages of Ilathid lost 95% of its membership and almost died--waiting and waiting for things to things to be fixed that were not fixed until it was too late...by several years. You can wait to be rescued or you can do your best to rescue yourself. Don't be like us and wait so long to be rescued that you're half dead by the time you set off on your own path.

Now, just speaking from my own perspective, I got bored of MOUL, oh, back during the Pod Ages. But that's okay, because I actually find building Ages to be much more fun than solving them, and so I've always had plenty to keep me occupied despite the fact that I log into Uru only when necessity compels.

So why is Ilathid still flourishing in the face of all the troubles Uru development is undergoing? Looking at the problems mentioned in this thread, there are some differences I can spot immediately:

1. Pleasant working environment
In all the years I've worked on Ilathid, I have seen perhaps two or three unpleasant words exchanged between members. And we don't have to put up with any nastiness from outside since we use a private forum. A nasty work environment is a killer every time. By contrast, working with helpful, pleasant people who appreciate you and your work is an energizing, synergistic experience.

2. No paralyzing canon to abide by
Due to the fact that our game lives within the Myst/Riven universe with its trap books and moving linking panels, we don't have to worry so much about somehow indirectly breaking the canon-that-has-yet-to-be. And even if we do, it's just an innocent Wingrovism, not a potential threat to the canon Cyan has established.
I should mention here that even trying to abide by our OWN canon paralyzed us for some time. We were so worried about not letting new work conflict with the old work that it stifled our creativity and hindered forward progress like a ball and chain around the foot. You know what Jesus said about putting new wine in old wineskins?

3. Most of all: Sense of forward motion and hope
We now see measurable progress and improvement. The project breaths again. Furthermore, our hope and motivation are self generated rather than being tied to the boom/bust/hope/despair cycle that the community goes through as it waits upon Cyan. So insularity in this case is a good thing.

My conclusion is that if you want to keep your spirits up and your motivation high, the best thing for it may simply be to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the naysayers for now. Then find a group of people you like working with, people who will encourage you, energize you, and help you realize your dreams. And heck, take a vacation for a few months if you need it. I know that in spite of some bad burnout, you aren't quite ready to give up yet--if you were, you wouldn't even be here posting. But something's gotta change, and if it's not going to be Cyan or the community, then it's going to have to be you and I--the things we find our satisfaction in, the people we hang out with, the groups whose opinions we listen to, our expectations for Cyan and the community. It doesn't necessarily matter what the Cyan or even the whole community thinks of you and your work; it's more important that your immediate friends and coworkers appreciate you and it. So let the storm howl outside; inside, stoke up the fire and have a hot cocoa with your own cozy little community and work on what you enjoy. When the storm ends--if it ends--you can go out and join the rest of world again. If not, so what? You're still doing something you enjoy and in good company too. Now I realize this isn't completely possible, but it's not completely impossible either.

Waiting and waiting and waiting for Cyan to come rescue us or for the community to suddenly transform into one big happy family again may be a fatal error. It nearly was for Ilathid, and I'd hate to see the same thing happen to Uru. Now may be a good time to reevaluate the necessity of things we have previously taken for granted--community support/unity and Cyan intervention--and think about finding ways to get by happily without them.

Food for thought:

1. Whose approval is important to you? The whole community, Cyan, the Guild of Writers, your immediate group of friends, or...? Whose expectations can you satisfy? Whose expectations can you never satisfy? Should you even try to win these people over? How much do you care what they think?
2. What would you do right now if you knew Cyan was never going to come to the rescue? What about if you knew they would come to the rescue, but it would be six months down the line? One year down the line? Two years down the line? If you do expect rescue, then when do you expect it to come? If it doesn't come by that time, what are your plans?
3. What do you enjoy most about your Uru-related activities? Building and creating? Working with nice people? Basking in the warm glow of others' affirmation of your work (you know it!)? Adding onto the universe we're all obsessed with? Which of these factors has gone away and left you dissatisfied? What can you do to mitigate this problem in such a way that doesn't require a Cyan miracle or a community wide reformation?

[Rabenschwinge]

I´ve followed the discussions for some time, and the different views on the topic interest me.
I´ve also seen a growing amount of distress, anger and frustration in a lot of posts, and this worries me.


I´ve felt frustrated a lot of times during the last years (how many since 2004? really 7??? ). First, Prologue, which I´ve participated in, got closed (out of reasons I still don´t understand, from the view of Ubisoft.) Then URU Live and it´s cancellation (another big disappointment, but at least the reasons were more understandable...).

You know, what kept me lurking around? What didn´t let me go? I could have gone, frustrated and angry, and let URU be URU, and never turn back. It´s just a game, after all, for heavens sake - so why did I NOT turn away?
It was, because there always was a little hope. Not much, but a little. No guarantees. No contracts.
Just a little hope, that URU someday MIGHT continue.

And it did, again and again: First Until URU (was it first?) - then URU Live (Gamtap), - then MOULa.
I agree, neither of this incarnations was perfect, or absolutely satisfying - but it DID continue, at last.

When Gametap closed URU Live, I thought "This is it". It was like a punch into the stomach.

But then, after months and months of nothingness (and I still kept lurking the forums, silly me ) I heard of people actually writing their own ages! I was fascinated and amazed.
When I heard, they - for the moment - were only for offline experience, it was a little (but only a little) disappointment - but the excitement of the ACTUAL POSSIBILTY thrilled me.
So - yes, KUDOS to everyone involved that this is possible to happen! And I really mean it!
And - this involves Cyan as well. I know, I know, they´ve made mistakes - the biggest mistake they made, in my opinion, is their lack of communication.
I think, it would have been BETTER, if they came each week into the forum, and put a short statement like "Nothing new yet, sorry - but we still didn´t change our plans", just to keep us updated - it would have been enough communication for me, as long as nothing happend.
But, oh well.

The other thing: I don´t like the fact, we can´t talk about some things regarding coding and fan ages in the official MOUL-forums - but I understand, why.
I think it was GreyDragon, who told us - more than once - that parts of URU were not open source per se, and not written by Cyan themselves. So, if I understand that correctly, part of URU (and I think MOUL as well) belong to other companies or foundations or whatever.
So, if Cyan said (and I honestly believe, they´d rather DO that): "Go on, write about hacking our games" - it is like their official position in this things. And law-wise, it CANT be their official position, because , assuming I understood this correctly, it ISNT legal to hack other companies NON-open-source stuff.

I also remember, that GreyDragon (I think it was him) wrote, that one guy, one ex-Cyan worker, had code to change (in his free time), before they could release the open source code. Seems, like this guy did not do this yet (at least this is the last bit of information I read about that.)
So - I think the situation is: Cyan wants to give us the open source code, but can´t do yet, because of legal issues - they fear being sued, which would be the death of Cyan, because I dont think, the company has enough money to survive a court case - especially, when they will lose it (because it is illegal to change other companies code without their permission, which those likely wont give.)

On the other hand, they cant talk to openly about it on their own forums - because the forums are public, and ANYONE can read them, including members of those other companies (or their lawyers.).
And they can´t allow us to talk about it, because of the same reasons: if Cyan SEEMS to encourage us officially(!) to break the law - they can get in BIIIIG trouble!
I don´t want to see Rand and his partners to loose all their money, just because we want our candy NOW, not when they are ready and prepared to to so.
I UNDERSTAND all the frustration, I´m frustrated too - but I WILL WAIT FOR URU, and if it takes all the time of the world. It CAME back more than once, actually.

I know, that a lot of people won´t wait, and I can understand that, but it also makes me sad, because we´ll lose a whole bunch of good guys, valuable members of the community (or should I better say, communities, because we are a quite diverse bunch )
So - I´m NOT a "follower of blue", because I DO think they make mistakes - they are human beings, after all - but on the other side I don´t think, there is some kind of conspiracy to keep us all from playing URU OR writing our own ages.

And: there is a difference between a broken promise, a promise that can´t be hold, and a promise that will be fullfilled, but later than what we all would wish it to.


I´d like to add: I do NOT intend to attack, offend, or blame anyone having another opinion than mine, I just hope, that my opinion actually can CONTRIBUTE to settle the massive tensions we have at the moment in the community.
Everyone is angry, shouting at each other - many of them are right in some way, but there are also a lot of personal attacks, conspiracy theories and hurt personal feelings, which is understandable, because everyone is so angry, but I´d rather have us all talking to each other in a nice, respectful manner, especially, when our opinions differ.

[Aloys]

Very wise words Jennifer.
I hope you do more than scientific work on non-glowing crystals and that your responsabilities include management because you can certainly foster a producitve work environement.

[quote=Rivvy]it's quite likely that the *average* Tolkien fan project has a shorter development time--but check out "The Hunt for Gollum" some time if you want to see an inspiring amount of fan effort and impressive resulting project [/quote]
Damn, looks very impressive indeed. I wish we had one tenth of the energy/coordination to do that. I'll have to read about the history of that project.

It´s just a game, after all, for heavens sake - so why did I NOT turn away?

Maybe because it's not just a game. :p I know it's a corny reply, but it's true..

[diafero]

Wow, some very interesting replies were made here! I especially like that little checklist at the end of Jennifer's post. It looks like exactly that happened, some people went through the points you mentioned, and decided it was about time to make a public Shard. Let's hope this does not create even more grief.

Rabenschwinge's statement also reads interesting, though I disagree on the legal part: Cyan actually allowed us to talk about MOUL hacking on those forums, albeit we have little means to do so by now. And I don't think it is legal reasons for which we must not talk about CC hacking there. But then, we have had this discussion on these forums already, and won't come to a new result, I think...

So - I think the situation is: Cyan wants to give us the open source code, but can´t do yet, because of legal issues - they fear being sued, which would be the death of Cyan, because I dont think, the company has enough money to survive a court case - especially, when they will lose it (because it is illegal to change other companies code without their permission, which those likely wont give.)

Unfortunately, the result is essentially the same as if the reasons for the delay are different - people drift away, or they make their plans how to go on without Cyan. Whatever process is quicker will most likely be the factor that decides how Uru will look like in a year or two.

[Jennifer_P]

I hope you do more than scientific work on non-glowing crystals and that your responsabilities include management because you can certainly foster a producitve work environement.

Thanks. Just hope this helps someone.