From my hands

[kaelisebonrai]

Cyan's plugin, Cyan's smugin. Requires a version of 3dsmax that is no longer readily available. And that's somehow an /improvement/ over the tools we already have? It may have some more features - but if you cannot legally obtain the software anymore (and, in general, you can't (yeah, yeah, all generalisations are evil (yes, i know that's a generalisation >.>))) features don't /matter/. And even if the software was current? The pricetag on the software is a /huge/ barrier to entry for fan creation that we don't /need/, and causes more problems than the plugin makes up for in features.

So everything is all our fault is it, Chloe? The lack of communication, the chilling effect of Cyan's new rules? They're all our fault, are they?

I do not WANT my age converted to 3dsmax. Why would I want that? What benefit would that have for me, and the continued development of my own Age? It would effectively HALT its development - permanently. Why would I (or anyone else) want that? Sure, I could obtain 3dsmax, and develop using that - But, guess what? I learnt to model in 3dsmax, and moved to blender later - I /prefer/ blender to 3dsmax. Why should I be forced to develop in 3dsmax?

In other words - You're saying we should just bend over and take it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be your stance.

[GPNMilano]

You named exactly *one* argument for switching to MOUL, that is faster age-loading times. And I agree, we can add that to the plus list.

Don't forget the improved graphics support. That's one of the reasons you never see me on alcugs shards, or on the very rare chance you see me it's only for a few moments. POTS for me runs like crap. The graphics have so many glitches it's not funny. And is newer then the game. POTS just doesn't support integrated graphics chips. MOUL does, and it's got adding shading support as I mentioned, as well as vairous classes not present in POTS. (Object Flocker, GrassShadMods just to name a few)[/quote]

All the rest... I did not say we could not convert Myst V, CT and Hex Isle as well as our additions to Relto, Nexus Hood and city to MOUL. Of course it's possible. But it's additional work that would have to be done, costing far more time than the few seconds you save on each link. And concerning fan-ages, calling what you do "conversion" is an understatement. It's basically a re-wiring, if not even a re-creation. Not to mention that you need the blend file to do it.

Your right, you do need the blend file. and it's less converting and more a rewiring. I offered to do this for Whilyam and Kaelis for Fens and the pub, but both turned me down.

Not to mention that restricting age building to 3ds Max also heavily restricts the group of age builders to those that are lucky enough to find someone to buy it from, or are willing to work with a pirated version. 3ds Max is already now splitting age builders into two fractions, and for CC we have a working open-source solution. Or, in different words, another *big* minus for MOUL: We rely on a closed-source expensive application for content creation.

Not entirely true. We have PyPRP2 stil in development, if people were to continue with it, we'd have an open source plugin that would do the same with libPlasma as it's source.

But you can not neglect the working toolchain (age creation, manipulation, in-game testing, debugging and integration, distribution, well-tested open-source server, ...) on the one side, while on the other side, much of this is missing (including age creation and a server, two core components!). So there needs to be a reason to put work into the MOUL engine. Hint: It's not "MOUL is the newer version".

I'm not neglecting the working toolchain. What I'm suggesting is that continue the work we'd started with developing a toolchain for MOUL. Like it or not the steps were taken. Before MOULagain even got started, PyPRP2 was in development. Hoikas had begon work on MuD. the steps had begun. And then they stopped once MOULagain hit the market. They stopped because we all expected Cyan to fulfillt heir promise and give us the source for MOUL. Which they have yet to say they won't do. Have they yet? No. But also look at it this way. Cyan has yet to break a promise that it has made. It took years to get the plugin, but we have it. Just as they had promised. Yes it took awhile, but it happened. And in the interm we made amazing steps with what we had. Rather than stop now, I'm just suggesting we continue to push forward while we wait for Cyan to fulfill it's next promise of the server code/binaries and the client source. Rather than thinking it'll never happen, look at what has. We got something that most of us never thought would come and had given up on. They did exactly what they had said they would do. It just took longer than we expected. We expected it over night, they promised six months, then another, then another. It took years. But it happened. There's no reason to think it won't again, if the past has shown it has happened before.

You promise that Cyan would be more open iff we take this step. It's nice to see people that can still put trust into this company, but I can't.

I don't put trust in the company, the company has to abide by what it's legal department suggests. I do however put trust in people there. And I have seen with my own eyes that trust returned to myself and others.

[kaelisebonrai]

No, I have reason to believe they will break that promise.

I have reason to believe that they are /not/ being honest with us.

Unless things have changed, and recently - we will not get "open source" (specifically, open source as defined by the OSI).

And I suspect you know I'm right, Chloe. =)

Perhaps I'm paranoid, but you know what? I'm often right about these feelings.

[GPNMilano]

So everything is all our fault is it, Chloe? The lack of communication, the chilling effect of Cyan's new rules? They're all our fault, are they?

No everything is not all our fault. Lack of communication with Cyan has always been an issue. They tend to wait too long to give us news, I grant you that. But do we really need them to pop in every month and say "still working on it. check back next month" till they give us something? Wouldn't it just be easier to assume from past expereince thatwhen there is news they will come to tell us? Are we really that impatient? As for the new forum rules. They'res no change in them other than now MOUL hacking is allowed to be discussed. Before NO hacking was allowed. Now only MOUL is. What I'm suggesting is that we take advantage of that and do what we do best. Develop. We can still develop CC as a testing enviornment for single player mode until Cyan releases the source for the client. Then all bets are off and we can shrug off CC and make MOUL single player. till then we develop the servers for a MOUL client, we develop Drizzle's ability to convert non MOUL stuff to MOUL. And we develop PyPRP to create MOUL stuff we can test on the new servers we make. And all of those things, can be discussed in open on the MOUL forums because the policies now allow that.

[Wamduskasapa]

I look at everything that this community has accomplished and then at what has been done for us by Cyan and I am amazed and saddened at the same time. They have given us 55 ages consisting of a 4.3 GB World that allows us to walk, run, climb and jump while we explore a wondrous environment with friends and companions from all over this world. From 2003 to the present their creation has withstood the test of time. While we have waited for their promised gifts others within our community have added an additional 96 ages to this world without their assistance. Ages that rival what Cyan gave us. We have patiently waited for 5 years now for their promised tools, drooling over what could be done, if these tools were within our hands, and every time Ivan rang his bell we started salivating anew. Isn't it time that you took some credit for what you have done. Isn't it time that we escape from the cage that Pavlov has confined us to, and cut Cyans apron strings, ISN”T IT TIME that this community ceased being a lap dog salivating over promised treats, and took credit for what has been accomplished by this community...

[N. Sigismund]

We need the test server and plugin sources. We can make the former, but we can't make the latter. So all development would have to be done in 3DS Max...

On the other hand, the test server is more important as it actually provides momentum. For a start, as GPN mentioned, we can probably get it past Cyan and generate substantial interest on the MOULa forums. And it provides incentives for people to begin and continue work because their releases are available for public consumption.

One other thing, however. I think I've mentioned that my two ages are going to be open source and freely downloadable in their entirety on release, .max file and all. I think this attitude should be picked up by everyone. For example, I'd like to see some of the 3d models people have made be downloadable by everyone for their own use. It would speed up development, allow good work to not be wasted and allow everyone who has given up on creation to contribute a big thing to the community.

Then, having lots of models to utilise, age creation can be sped up rapidly. Think of it this way - every single person who wants to begin age creation will have to make a book at some point. They're sort of common in Uru. I have a few book models I'd be happy sharing. Stuff like columns, arches, rubble, levers, doors... all this would be really helpful to your rookie developer. And you could export them from both Blender and Max as .obj files as easy as pie. If that works well, why not release complete or incomplete ages as .blend and .max files?

Thoughts?

[Whilyam]

I suggest taking RAWA's advice and do something else until Cyan can do the work they need to do. For me, that's developing for Uru:CC. It's not paying attention to inconsequential whining by the Blue Believers on the MOUL forums.

Cyan is content to waste this opportunity, so let them. The remaining community will do what it does best if/when Cyan fails: rebuild.

[N. Sigismund]

I don't pay much attention to the talk on most internet forums - Mystonline.com is one of those I try not to pay too much attention to. This is still the internet, still the real world, after all.

Whilyam, at what point would you and SR convert over to the MOULa format? I know you were recently advertising for Blender modeling places.

[Tweek]

I can't understand the thinking of some of us when it comes to inactivity:

People complain that the cavern is empty cause there is nothing to do- The cavern isn't empty cause there is nothing to do. People have events, no one ever shows up to them. The cavern isn't empty because there's nothign to do. The cavern is empty because people would rather complain there is nothing to do then go into the cavern and...do something. People would rather complain that there is no activity from Cyan. If you want to complain about the inactivity then do something to warrant activity. Spend time in the cavern, do stuff there. Keep the cavern activity high and the activity other places will be high. At the current time their are 20 people in the cavern's public places. Yet none of us are. Instead we're here complainging about the inactivity. Well drive up activity and there won't be inactivity. Participate in these events. Go to the Guild's fair next weekend. Go to the D'ni music festivals. Events are posted on the Messengers forums yet no one goes to them. Guess what, there is not going to be anything to do if no one wants to do anything.

And not only will you drive activity back to the cavern if even a small amount of us actually participate in the cavern activities. But being down there, will actually inspire us to create. There is a reason we all create places that fascinate us. It's cause we're all inspired by the same places to do so. We were all inspired by the cavern and it's ages at one point. THe more time we spend away from our respective "muses" the more time we will feel uninspired.

The flip side to this is the more time we spend actually fostering activity in the cavern,the more time Cyan's activity within the cavern will more than likely drive up. I'm sure they're feeling just as dejected as we are. But we're all forgeting a very key point to a multiplayer-online uru. You can't have a multiplayer-online uru without the most important part. Those multiplayers, actually have to be online. Crazy how that works.

Well different people have different interests when it comes to Uru. Myself I liked the Ages and Story (until train-wreck hour), the community side of it was a minor thing for me. And given how the community is these days, it's a non existent thing for me.

Sure I can log into MOUL, I can revisit Ages I've played countless times, all the while dealing with people I don't want to talk to.
Or I can log into my offline version, visit those same Ages, visit new Ages, build new Ages, all without the community BS popping up on my KI every five minutes.

Not really a contest there.

"Go to a music festival, go to this gathering, go to that gathering." But why? I have no interest in those things.

You are right, a mutiplayer online Uru needs the MO part. But I have long thought that the way the MO part in Uru has been handled is wrong. There isn't enough interest to warrent big servers, Uru is a niche game, always was always will be. Uru would work better with an online mechanism similar to TeamFortress 2 or Half Life 2 Death Match.
"Hey Bill, we should explore Kadish together"
"Good idea hang on" *click set up server, name it, password protect it* "Ok it's up you can connect via [path to server here]"
*cue skipping and hand holding through Kadish*

Severs can last as long as you want to play or be a dedicated server, cap set on how good your server is.

I couldn't care less about being online, UruCC is my future, MOUL isn't and won't ever be. But having an option to switch it so I can explore Kemo with my wife or hooking up with Kae and Whil in Negilahn would be nice. Small, simple, less Believers of Blue asshattery.

Isn't it time that you took some credit for what you have done. Isn't it time that we escape from the cage that Pavlov has confined us to, and cut Cyans apron strings, ISN”T IT TIME that this community ceased being a lap dog salivating over promised treats, and took credit for what has been accomplished by this community...

There are several issues with your comment.

a. I think we'd gladly take credit, but we're not allowed to. Very few in the community understand the true impact the dirty dirty hackers have had on this community. Those morsels of light that they hold up with such holy appreciation, that they most likely wouldn't actually have if not for those dirty dirty hackers. It doesn't matter, we're nasty people who are killing uru, hurting Cyan, cubbing baby seals and drop kicking babies.

Constantly witch hunted, is it any surprise that few of us want anything thing to do with the greater community, that few of us tout our achievements

b.Yes it is time to cut strings, it is time to go "you know what to hell with this lets just do this thing", I think it is time for GoW to have their own shard/server and to hell with everyone else.

c. There are very few of us at the GoW who are the ones salivating over Cyan, getting into a state every time they open their mouths. We're hackers, not Crisger.If you're looking for people soiling themselves over every little thing Cyan does, then you might want to look towards the MOUL forums.


Me? Bitter? Why yes, yes I am.

[diafero]

Don't forget the improved graphics support. That's one of the reasons you never see me on alcugs shards, or on the very rare chance you see me it's only for a few moments. POTS for me runs like crap. The graphics have so many glitches it's not funny. And is newer then the game. POTS just doesn't support integrated graphics chips. MOUL does, and it's got adding shading support as I mentioned, as well as vairous classes not present in POTS. (Object Flocker, GrassShadMods just to name a few)

Agreed, another engine improvement. I forgot about that. Which also explains why you want it so badly.

Not entirely true. We have PyPRP2 stil in development, if people were to continue with it, we'd have an open source plugin that would do the same with libPlasma as it's source.

If people were to do whatever we had a lot of stuff. Point is, to switch to MOUL, we not only need to write a server, we also need to write an age-building plugin (not exactly sure what the current state of PyPRP2 is, but it looks very basic). I remember you did some work on the current PyPRP, so why don't you work on PyPRP2 if you think we should use MOUL?
In my eyes, the advantages simply don't outweigh the amount of work necessary - as that amount is really HUGE.

Cyan has yet to break a promise that it has made.

I'm not around for that long, but even I read what Cyan promised regarding UU, and what they did...

We can still develop CC as a testing enviornment for single player mode until Cyan releases the source for the client. Then all bets are off and we can shrug off CC and make MOUL single player.

A mixed CC/MOUL development environment? I doubt that's really usable. I still remember the hassle to get the MOUL ages working in POTS (the next Offline KI will contain yet another manual workaround for a problem with unknown cause). I think most age builders are happy to be able to deal with the bugs and issues of one Uru engine...