Guild of Writers Leadership

Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby Trylon » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:40 am

Jennifer_P wrote:
....whilst the others defend lukewarmly, in such wise that the prince is endangered along with them.
--Nicolo Machiavelli, "The Prince"


Heh - Yeah, I recognize it - No offense meant to anyone !!!

DisClaimer: This following part is written mostly in jest-style - for infotainment purposes - and should not offend anyone.

We (thinking): "Hmm, in order to safely discuss how to carefully put things as not to offend anyone, we need to discuss things, and need a safe place for it. PM's don't really work in groups of 5, so we need a private forum" - "Wait that could get opposition so let's add a forum that anyone can read, but only Councilors post, for things that aren't so sensitive"


Opponent: "'Private forum'? Not evereone can access it, so it's a "Secret forum". That means secrets! I don't want secrets, I want everything in the open."


We: "Ehm! It's just as an alternative for PM's "


Lukewarm defender: "No, sometimes secrets are neccesary, like NDA stuff, so a 'Secret forum' is perfectly valid, you can bicker whatever you want, but we will have secrets!"


Opponent (responding only to lukewarm defender): "Noooooooo!!! Secrets are evil. If you have secret forums, I want nothing to do with it"

We (thinking): "Myeah, we don't really care about that private forum, but the alternative is discussing everything that's not ready for immediate release through PM, and that gets so annoying when you do it with 5 people"

Lukewarm defender: "Oh, get real, you have secrets everywhere in real life..... yada` yada` yada`"

We (thinking): "Hmpf, we wish those Lukewarm defenders had kept their mouth about nda's and secrets. That's totally not what this is for, and should NDA's ever really get a problem, what's the difference between doing everything on a totally uber secret forum, and discussing it through PM/Email?. At least this way, it get's stored for a future council, should they want to know it."

Opponent: He who made this, is evil, because he set a structure especially to keep secrets from everyone! yada` yada` yada`

Again - No offense meant to anyone!!!! I did not have anyone in particular in mind when I wrote these few lines.
One day I ran through the cleft for the fiftieth time, and found that uru held no peace for me anymore.
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby OnslaughtQ » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:57 am

Very nice Trylon! And don't worry there's no offense taken here, I completely understand :D
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby BAD » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:45 am

Jennifer_P wrote:
Cyan will not deal with this forum as a whole entity. I am sorry if this shatters your world view, it is simply a matter of business. It is not in Cyan's interest to speak to a collective. It causes things.......Well.....things like these arguments we are having right now. Would you want to have to go through this every time you wanted to enlist the GOW to do something?

Well actually, Cyan is quite used to dealing with general populations of nonconsolidated people; they do it all the time when they make announcements on the MOUL forums. They also do not appear to have had any problems communicating with us writers in the past. In addition, if you were Cyan and you had posted your government strategy, there would be grumbling, but no big argument like this. The discussion would be more like, "Yes sir!" and then we'd set about it. Cyan said, "We'd like guilds," and here we are...

We added a way to audit the private forum as well (If anyone actually read that part) because we knew there could be times when the community distrusts the current council, and wants to see if they have betrayed them.

It's when I hear sentences like this that I worry about having a council.

If we do not implement structure then this guild will fall into chaos, and nothing outside of some independent projects will ever get done. Keep up this bickering and we will begin to lose talented people who will become fed up with it.

Oh, come now... :) How can we possibly fall into chaos--what would that even look like? And why would nothing but independent projects get done? Is Ahra Pahts, a community Age created before there was even a guild at all, going to go up in flames if we don't get a council of representatives? And seriously, there's been no bad bickering that I've seen here except the stuff related to this one issue.

The fact is, our guild can get along as well as it always has without leadership; it's our sister organizations, the other Uru guilds and groups, who want and need to talk with individuals (representatives?--only if there was a clear opinion to represent!) whom they can consult with questions and proposals. Even if all that individual says is, "Uh, I don't think the guild will be interested in that, but I'll ask," and then posts the question on the forum.


Jennifer_P wrote:Well, you two have both been around longer than I have, so I'll defer to your experience in what Cyan would prefer and what structure stands the test of time. :) At the same time, I would venture to suggest that it's in Cyan's best interests to foster guild growth, and I don't think they would let a lack of structure stand in the way of doing that. I confess I don't have much experience with NDAs myself, but it certainly does sound like the proposed representatives would be useful in that. Tell me if I'm picturing the situation right in this example: Cyan wants to do something or other secret with music, so they contact the representative who is associated with the musicians and after putting them under an NDA, tells them the proposal. Then what does the representative do? Does he go around pming people who he thinks would be interested with vague details, telling them that with the NDA they can hear it all? (Because that sounds sort of like preferential treatment) Or alternatively, does he post the vague details on the Music forum and tell people that with an NDA they can hear it all? Maybe you could give some examples of NDA situations of the past and explain how the representatives would have solved some of the problems involved. :)

And Tomala, I'm wondering what happened when the groups you mentioned dissolved into chaos? No need to mention names, I just want to figure out what parallels you're seeing with this group. I think it could be helpful in demonstrating the benefits of a structure to hear what caused things to go wrong and what you think might have prevented that from happening.

Want to hear an interesting quote? It's exactly right too...

And it ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them. Thus it happens that whenever those who are hostile have the opportunity to attack they do it like partisans, whilst the others defend lukewarmly, in such wise that the prince is endangered along with them.

--Nicolo Machiavelli, "The Prince"


Apparently, all the work I have done, and experience I have gained over the years has failed to register with you. You may take what I say, and deny it all you want, but I have been in many many groups with similar goals as this one, and they have all died for the same reasons. Breakdown of structure, members working against the group rather than for it. Sometimes all it took was one rule broken, to start the slide.

I can answer your questions about the groups, since I was in every single one Tomala was in, privately. Some of them for longer than her....... But perhaps I shouldn't keep posting here as it seems my lukewarm support is just adding fuel to the fire.....

(I am not taking offense to that Try, I am just using it to make my point ;) )
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby Whilyam » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:59 am

So, the question is, who will make a concession? Who will say "you might be wrong, but we'll try something your way"?
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby Jennifer_P » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:26 pm

Apparently, all the work I have done, and experience I have gained over the years has failed to register with you.

Not so BAD; up till now I didn't know what organizations you've been a part of or what sorts of work you've done. You'd mentioned you'd had dealings with Cyan, but many people have had them--so it's nice to provide some specifics to establish your qualifications better. I also didn't think that the parallel of a paid professional artist (very cool job, by the way--what medium(s) do you work in?) to an employing company was a very good parallel to that of a fan base to its entertainment company. What Paradox added made the NDA argument make more sense, especially since if there ever was a group who would be aware of NDA issues it would the H'Uru developers.
You may take what I say, and deny it all you want, but I have been in many many groups with similar goals as this one, and they have all died for the same reasons. Breakdown of structure, members working against the group rather than for it. Sometimes all it took was one rule broken, to start the slide.

Okay, I see what you're talking about now. It was just this phrase that I was looking at from your earlier post, "If we do not implement structure then this guild will fall into chaos, and nothing outside of some independent projects will ever get done." The way I was reading it, you were saying that either A.) We adopt a system of representatives, or B.) Certain doom, starting now! (Which seemed unlikely, especially since things are working alright now) Now please note that although I disagreed with your point I do support a system of representatives; but I figured if I wasn't convinced by the argument then the people who don't want representatives surely wouldn't be, and we do need to convince them.
If you don't mind, could you take a little time and explain to me why the structure started to break down in the instances you and Tomala remember? And what things did the members do to work against the guild? (Privately would be fine, although there might be some benefits to doing it publicly so that people can see why the representative system would have been helpful in preventing these situations) The only example I'm currently familiar with of an Age creation group deteriorating is the Verenia project, but that was a pretty different case from the Guild of Writers.
First off. I want everyone who has had dealings with Cyan to please post, and tell us a little about it.

I'll add my voice to BAD's here--anybody else have some experience they'd like to mention?
Cyan is also famous for NDAs. There's a possibility that they might give source code to people under NDA, there's a possibility that they might put GoW storyline under NDA. We don't know what Cyan intends, we can only look at what they have done in the past.

For those of us who've only been here since January, what has Cyan done in the past with NDAs? (Besides the Uru testers, I can't think of any good examples off the top of my head)
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby BAD » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:49 pm

Do to NDA's I can't speak publicly about a lot of what I experienced (thus the privately statement). Perhaps if I tell you a parable, you could figure out one of the things I have seen.

There once was a game that many people loved. Some people loved it so much they wanted to help make it grow. Some of these growers decided the best way to make growth was to form an alliance with all the other growers. You see the growers provided the game to the public, as the original creator of the game could not do so anymore.

In one of the games many shards there lived an evil person. He was not overtly evil, nor did he think himself evil, but he had done some bad things to some of the players of the game. Everyone of the growers wanted to punish him and make sure he never came back to the game, except for one grower. This grower felt that no one should be permanently punished for misdeeds if they were sorry. Most of the other growers disagreed with him. Feeling the burden of being in the minority, the forgiving grower disappeared, leaving one of his followers to lead in his stead.

The alliance was forged. The structure and rules were sound. There was a short time of peace, and much was getting done to make the game much much better.

Oh but the peace wouldn't last. The forgiving grower returned and took back control of his shard. He allowed the evil one back, and this drove off some people who used to enjoy his shard. They told other growers about their plight, and the growers tried to get the forgiving grower to see reason. He would not. He stuck to his ideal, and dragged the alliance down with him. He garnered others in his campaign and once they began to change the rules and structure, many of the original growers who wrote those very rules, left the alliance. With the backbone gone, the alliance couldn't stand anymore. It never died, but dwindled to a shadow of what it could have been. It still lives a lonely life. Only a memory to most.

The moral of that story is that it is best to compromise when you are a part of a group. Forcing your ideals on others will only make them resent you or leave.

I can also tell you that respect plays a big part in group politics. Some people tend to make assumptions about others, and respond in kind. This is not the way to garner respect or support. On forums, and in games it is hard to judge someones meaning behind the words. What I try to do is read the messages in the most positive light I can. By reading into a message what you think it's mood is, your actually (in most cases) putting a certain spin on the message based on your assumptions about the writer.

Lastly, it seems that some may think I am being over dramatic about this place falling into chaos. Well depends on how you define chaos. I usually choose Webster's for my definitions....

Chaos

1obsolete : chasm, abyss
2 a often capitalized : a state of things in which chance is supreme; especially : the confused unorganized state of primordial matter before the creation of distinct forms — compare cosmos b: the inherent unpredictability in the behavior of a complex natural system (as the atmosphere, boiling water, or the beating heart)
3 a: a state of utter confusion <the blackout caused chaos throughout the city> b: a confused mass or mixture <a chaos of television antennas>

The first definition works for me in this case. No structure, and this forum is obsolete. Who needs a forum if everyone is just working on their own projects. When people get fed up with nothing good happening here, they will leave, and take their knowledge and projects with them. Who loses? Everyone.

Two doesn't work so good here.

Three isn't a perfect fit, but makes sense. The utter confusion being those who cling here with the hopes of having a place to learn and team up with others to make ages happen. Since many will pack up there toys and leave, they will have very little chance to do so.

Perhaps this is still dramatic, but then again, I may feel passionate about this as I really would like this guild to work out. If that means I need to ruffle some feathers, than so be it.
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby Chacal » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:14 pm

:cry:
And this Evil One, after he was allowed back by the Forgiving Grower, was he evil still? Did he do bad things to players again?
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby BAD » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:31 pm

Yes.

Then UU ended.... I mean the game!......the game ended!...parables and such.....(mumble, mumble)....
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby semplerfi » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:49 pm

BAD wrote:Yes.

Concur.
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Re: Guild of Writers Leadership

Postby Chacal » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:43 am

Are you telling me the GoA crumbled just because of Jahuti and Eric or was it another thing?
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