Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

[Lontahv]

I think that there SHOULD be a private forum for those who are members of the writers, but not for just the five.

[Nadnerb]

I also think Belford, that membership to this guild WILL be a privilege when the GoW gets off the ground. Just think of when cyan makes it so you can have custom ages on urulive, the fame an age will get if it's release by the writers, think of how many lone age writers there will be releasing one age, we ARE one and will create so many great ages together. I think that there will be a separate section in the library(or what ever they're going to use for fan made stuff) for GoW ages.

Certainly not. The guild will collect information to help in the creation of ages, and it is likely that even if someone writes an age on their own, the submission process will still be done through the guild. Therefore, ANYONE who creates, works on, or is vaguely interested in working on, an age would have to be considered a member of the guild. The choice of inclusion of individual ages will be done on the basis of the quality of the age, NOT on whether or not it was created by a group of members from the previously existing guild. So no, we will not be exclusive in any way whatsoever, except in the exceedingly improbable circumstance that someone would do something bad enough to require them to be ejected/banned.

To address the direct topic: Private forums are fundamentally different from PM and email. Private forums create a hierarchy. A mutable set of people who will always see any "private" correspondence. PMs and emails can be directed at the people who their subject directly concerns, while a private forum directs information at a class of privileged people. Correspondence directed at the guild may be sent to one particular contact point, but it must also be immediately disseminated to the rest of the guild members, who are, in short, anyone with a mind to join.

To stray off topic a little, I am ok with there being a single contact point for the purposes of communication with Cyan as long as any attempt at information passing through is made public during or immediately after. Any specific technical details that would require confidential treatment should instead be directed directly at their recipients, rather than through the guild, since that would necessitate the conversation being revealed. "Decision making" however, is irrelevant, because of the lack of control anyone can or should have over members.

[Lontahv]

I don't think that the five should get a private forum--it's just too small a group of people to get a private forum, I think that everyone in the guild sould get to see what's going on inside their heads. BUT I still think that a members-only forum wouldn't be a very bad idea.

[Nadnerb]

To respond to the topic that seems to have cropped up as a side point:
A members-only forum is fine as long as membership is not restricted in any way. In fact, there is already precedent for this. The Showcase age forum is currently set to members-only, and can only be viewed while logged in. Similar topics that only have relevance for registered users could be easily added.

However this is completely detached from the topic, Private forums are fundamentally different from PMs and emails (see my earlier post), hence the post in white.

[BAD]

To address the direct topic: Private forums are fundamentally different from PM and email. Private forums create a hierarchy. A mutable set of people who will always see any "private" correspondence. PMs and emails can be directed at the people who their subject directly concerns, while a private forum directs information at a class of privileged people. Correspondence directed at the guild may be sent to one particular contact point, but it must also be immediately disseminated to the rest of the guild members, who are, in short, anyone with a mind to join.[/color]

Private forums do not create a hierarchy.

Hierarchy

1: a division of angels
2 a: a ruling body of clergy organized into orders or ranks each subordinate to the one above it; especially : the bishops of a province or nation b: church government by a hierarchy
3: a body of persons in authority
4: the classification of a group of people according to ability or to economic, social, or professional standing; also : the group so classified
5: a graded or ranked series <a hierarchy of values>

As the private forum meets none of these definitions it can not form a hierarchy. Perhaps number 3 could be used to say that a private forum would PROMOTE a hierarchical type of thinking among the Councilors, but since they have no real authority to tell people what to do, it would be futile for them to foster such delusions.

[Whilyam]

When given a private forum, I will become a division of angels.

[Nadnerb]

Private forums do not create a hierarchy.

Hierarchy

1: a division of angels
2 a: a ruling body of clergy organized into orders or ranks each subordinate to the one above it; especially : the bishops of a province or nation b: church government by a hierarchy
3: a body of persons in authority
4: the classification of a group of people according to ability or to economic, social, or professional standing; also : the group so classified
5: a graded or ranked series <a hierarchy of values>

As the private forum meets none of these definitions it can not form a hierarchy. Perhaps number 3 could be used to say that a private forum would PROMOTE a hierarchical type of thinking among the Councilors, but since they have no real authority to tell people what to do, it would be futile for them to foster such delusions.

Well, I expected more than a technical definition thrown back at me. I suppose you don't expect much of me.

Still, what about #4? "the classification of a group of people according to ability or to economic, social, or professional standing; also : the group so classified", or to pare it down to the essentials: "the classification of a group of people according to social standing."

It would create a group of a certain social standing within the forum. They would be the fixed class of people with access to the "private" information. Whether or not the material was directed at any specific member of their class (as a PM would be), they would all see it, as they would have the appropriate status.

Hence, there is a fundamental difference between a private forum and PMs and email.

[BAD]

I do expect quite a bit out of you. None of it pertains to this argument.

Number 4 fails in the same way number 3 does. The private forum for the GC is only for private discussions AMONG the GC. If Cyan wants a private area to talk to a select number of NDA signed people, we will have to make one. The GC can convince themselves all they want they are better than everyone else, having a private forum does not MAKE them truly better.

Once again, there can be no hierarchy with out power. The Council will have no power to enforce anything. They will be doing a job for the guild, and they will need to discuss how to do this job privately sometimes. That is the only need for the private forum. The GC can convince themselves all they want they are better than everyone else, having a private forum does not MAKE them truly better.

PS: I know your a smart person, and my intention was not to insult you. Sometimes to make a point you need to clarify what you are discussing, and that is the only reason I used the definition.

[Jennifer_P]

I oppose a private forum. Although a private forum allows for superior communication, I feel there are adequate alternatives available to one, and that the council members should be able to perform their duties fine without one. After all, our entire "constitution" (for lack of a better word) was written without a private forum, and pms or e-mail lists can serve for unusual duties requiring private discussion. The representatives would also have the resources of the private chatroom areas of Uru Live for their discussions.

I also feel that a private forum will lead to the following negative consequences:
1. Discussions that could be made public are kept private instead.
2. The reasoning behind certain counsel decisions will not be as clear as it would otherwise be.
3. Public input (and possibly opinion) may be circumvented to some extent in the drafting of proposals.

I will also mention that, as regards the OOC Subterranean Restorations forum that Andy mentioned earlier, there was at one point a secret set of subforums for the "leaders" of the group. The rest of the forum was for the "volunteers," who missed out on a lot of discussion and chances to give their input due to the existence of the secret subfora. I saw 1, 2, and 3 occurring while we had the private subfora. So while I agree there are some benefits to a private forum, I nevertheless think the costs outweigh them.

And on a side note, there is some power attached to being a GC member--their titles will instantly grant them more of the natural respect they will probably already have, and as they have more voting power than the average guild member, and are closer to the authorities (i.e. Cyan) than the average guild member, they get extra influence on guild decisions and power-by-association. They're definitely not going to be equal to the rest of us.

[Aloys]

Having a private forum IS different from PM or Email because many people can access it, but also because these people can change over time, and when new people can access it they will be able to read the conversations of previous people had without them, and that can be problematic..
For example: think of a private moderators-only board on a forum (like there are on almost all forums). Mods will discuss here and take a random decision 'secretly'. Some time later one of the regular forum members becomes a moderator, he can now access the private mod board and find the previously secret decision; and he totally disagree with it. Drama ensues.

BUT... as has been said before, that kind of problem aside, a private board IS very usefull; although not strictly necessary. If something *really* needs to stay confidential PMs or emails should be used; but for most conversation between several people a forum is often the best tool.