Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby andylegate » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:53 am

Wow.....I don't think I've seen a more clear cut example of "Us" vs. "Them" in your statement Jennifer. Let me show you:

then the idea could be fairly easily nipped in the bud by its critics.

This seems to indicate that you feel that a few people that are opposed to something should always have their way, regardless if the majority would want it.

Well, then they could launch a full scale surprise attack on their opponents.

This is a group of people trying to help make things better. Not declare war.

and prepared beforehand, the council could put up a united front and articulate its idea elegantly and convincingly while its unprepared opponents are still coming to grips with the idea and revving up to try to prevent it from coming to pass.

This is why things are given a chance to be discussed first, and then voted upon. You are saying that they should never have a chance to work out things that they no will NOT pass. That would be a COMPLETE waste of everyone's time. I'd much rather see a proposal that has been refined and polished so that people like it better, and won't argue as much about it. If they simply threw something out with out a chance to think about it, then each and every one would be bogged down in arguements, instead of only a few things that people might go against and say: "Well, sounds good, but we'd like to talk about a couple of points first."

The council might also try some trick like ......

This is just complete hostility against any type of organizational progress. It's called being paranoid. Sorry that you have that type of issue.

Suddenly the question is more like "Do you want to keep things like they are now, or change them back to the old way?" rather than "Do you want this change to happen at all?" or "Do you like how this proposal we've drafted sounds, or would you change some parts before accepting it?" or "We're thinking of proposing this idea, what does everyone think?" Thus the power of inertia is removed from the side of the opponents and granted to the council.

Again, the structure they have proposed prevents the council from shoving anything down anyone's throats, unless the majority of the members want it.
If the council DID try something like that, members can then in turn put their own proposal to have council removed, or things changed.

Basically, if people know what the council is up to, they can stop or change things before they become too big and mature to be easily preventable.

Again, this comment shows that you think that anything the council comes up with will always be suspect or bad. Period.

Also, the less efficient communication available among the council members prevents group coordination in pushing an idea and defending it from attacks.

Oh yes, god forbid if there were any type of organizational thinking that makes things run smoothly and helps promote communications with outside groups, because we all know that the council is really the Evil Emperor and Darth Vader...... :roll: Again, you act as if this were war.


Ye Gods your hostility is quite evident about any form of representation. Instead of understanding that what they are trying to do is form a group that works for you, you are making them in to a group that is going to try and control you. That anyone on the council is going to always go for some sort of "Power Trip" and exert their authority on everyone.
That anything the council comes up with must be treated as an attack on you or others. That it is important that the council should always be kept off balanced and unable to work in an organized way of any sort, because that is just simply unfair.


:roll:
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Aloys » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:04 am

I think she is just taking an extreme stance for the sake of the discussion. :)
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Whilyam » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:09 am

I agree, the council is not something that must be stopped over every rule or debate, only those that are truly bad for the Guild. If they "launch a surprise attack" by making up clear rebuttals to potential criticisms, then that is a GOOD thing. It means we can move on to whatever the next criticisms are without worrying so much about those that are (potentially) resolved.

In short it's a very poorly planned-out argument.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Jennifer_P » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:19 am

Heh, I never said this was something I was worried about. (You'll notice the post is not in red; it's an observation, not a point *against* having a private forum from me. I already stated totally different reasons why I didn't want one in an older post) ;) What other people think may be a different matter, as I said:
Bottom line: I think most people know subconsciously that a private forum makes it easier for the council to get things their way, and they worry that what the council may want will not be what they may want.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby andylegate » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:17 pm

Your opinion:

Bottom line: I think most people know subconsciously that a private forum makes it easier for the council to get things their way, and they worry that what the council may want will not be what they may want.


However, the fact is that so far, on this discussion thread, out of 13 people that have posted comments we have:

9 For having a private forum

and

4 against.

So it would seem that, based upon those who have come here, "Most people" are not thinking that.
The rest apparently really don't care one way or the other.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Robert The Rebuilder » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:54 pm

One fundamental difference between private forums and PMs/email is that it is easier to communicate via forums with a group that is larger than two people. You don't have to worry about maintaining a CC list or keeping your inbox down to size; plus, you can rig a forum topic to notify you (via email or PM) when someone has responded. So, I have to disagree with Trylon's initial statement - they are fundamentally different.

Now that I'm out of the red :)... I noticed that the discussion seemed to twist the subject to be toward whether the GoW council should use a private forum. That's a separate issue, which IMHO warrants a new discussion topic.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Chacal » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:21 pm

That's true, Robert. I'm not against private forums per se, it's what's done with them that worries me. I guess it's the same for other people who wrote in red.

However, it's hard to break down discussions into small pieces, because there is an interrelation between them.
Also people will get fed up at some point with the constant arguing about details.

I would have started a different discussion, but I can't: only a privileged few can start new threads in the Public Discussion forum, which I find appalling. I could have started it in the "general discussion" forum, but it's not the same. It's like filing it under "Other unimportant subjects". ;)
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Pryftan » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:27 pm

Chacal, if you start a discussion in General, I'll gladly move it here. We just don't want this section to become cluttered.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Jennifer_P » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:20 pm

Okay, I'll qualify it then:
Bottom line: I think most people that don't want a private forum know subconsciously that a private forum makes it easier for the council to get things their way, and they worry that what the council may want will not be what they may want.

Although of course it's also possible that most people do worry, just not enough to make them oppose the forum. Some peoples' worries are like: "What if the council wants me to work on a project I don't like?" while other peoples' worries are more like "What if the council tries to change the forum color scheme to something I don't like?" in terms of intensity. A person who worries about the former plan might care enough to oppose a private forum, whereas a person whose biggest worry is the forum's color scheme probably couldn't care less what the council does on the private forum. To the former person, it would be more important to make sure that they can exert whatever control they can get over the council so that the council doesn't do "anything bad," whereas as far as the latter person is concerned, the council can't do much of "anything bad" anyway, so why not let it plan what it wants? (Disclaimer: it's been made clear that the council won't be assigning people to projects--it was just an example of a "serious" worry.) I happen to be of the latter class; I think that these initial issues will probably be the most serious and controversial guild decisions that will be decided for a loooong time to come, but that after they're over daily life for most of the guild will look the same as it ever did and the big decisions will be something on the order of "Should we start a new wiki or fix the old one?" We'll see.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Chacal » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:58 pm

Pryftan wrote:Chacal, if you start a discussion in General, I'll gladly move it here. We just don't want this section to become cluttered.


Thanks Pryftan, but it's even worse so I'll just forget about it.
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