Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Trylon » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:56 am

Topic of this discussion:

"Having a private forum is not fundamentally different from or worse than discussing something in secret through PM and Email"


Hello,
In the hopes that the future council will follow this example sometimes, I am now introducing "Discussion Topics".
Having such topics can provide valuable insights in what lives here, even if the topic at hand is not of immediate concern.
(Plus, it helps keep ongoing discussions separated)

In order to keep things clear, even in heated discussions, here are some Guidelines for Discussion topics:
Guidelines for Discussion Topics

A statement is put forth for discussion.
Defenders of the statement should post in Green
Opponents of the statement should post in Red
Neutral comments should be posted in Yellow/Orange
Off topic parts should be in normal text color.

Any opinions put forth here should not be held against people in another part of the forum.

If you forget to post in the correct color, a mod can set the correct color for your post. Please don't be offended by that.


The statement for this discussion is posted on top of this post.

Have fun!
Last edited by Trylon on Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Whilyam » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:09 am

I agree a "members only" forum is fundamentally the same as discussing via PM or email, only it has the added benefit of allowing many more to access the information easier. Either way can be used to conspire against people, so I see no problem in picking a more efficient means of meeting (whether for the good of others or not is up to the other members).
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby teedyo » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:46 am

I'm against a private forum because I see no need for it. I've yet to see the example of a scenario where it might be necessary. I'm working from the position that council business is by definition GoW business as they are a subset of the GoW. If they want a forum to use as a 'scratch pad', fine; let them use an open forum.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby andylegate » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:01 am

Neutral as I'm not a GoW memeber, however, my comments are green.

Over at the GoMa forum, we don't have a private forum section as of yet for only the Pre-Guildmasters. What we do have is a Pre-Guildmaster PM that you can select, so that the PM is received by the other 4 GM's. Now the main problem with that is that our In Boxes can start to get full rather quickly discussing something.

We have not had a need for private discussions that would require an actual private forum....yet. This does not mean that we would not need it in the future. A good example of what I'm talking about is some IC/OOC stuff that we have a project on, dealing with JD Barnes's Translation. There is both a IC and a OOC sides to it. Some people want to only see the IC discussions. So the OOC would be kept private.

The SR group did this in a way too. OOC stuff was talked about on a completely different forum board, who's URL was kept pretty much to ourselves. The SR then created a IC forum board, where IC stuff could be seen by all and who's URL was public.

To me it would seem that a private forum for the GoW would be needed at one point. Namely to talk about Ages that will be released to the public, but are not ready yet. People don't like to get spoiled, and you may have non-writers visitng your forum (not even registered, just over here visiting and reading) and they might appriciate having discussions and screen shots kept private. Private in that Writers working on it would have access or if you ask for access just to follow the discussion.
So in this sense, I can see a forum being private that is kept from the public view, but not from members.

Now, if the council members have something that they wish to talk about in private, then they should do so via PM's. Not that I'm against them having their own private place to talk (just like many places and people have) before making something public, but because there seems to be people here that are very paranoid and are very afraid that anything discussed in private will mean the end of the world, even though things can be discussed in private anyway through PM's :rolling eyes here:


My 2 cents
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Tweek » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:34 am


Private forum will be required at some point I'm sure. I have nothing against it pretty much all forums have private areas.

Having a private forum for discussions instead of PM's works for admin and mods but once you start including regular members into the fold you will find issues, so despite the bothersome nature of it, keeping it to PM's would be wiser in that respect.

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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby teedyo » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:08 pm

andylegate wrote:Neutral as I'm not a GoW memeber, however, my comments are green.


To me it would seem that a private forum for the GoW would be needed at one point. Namely to talk about Ages that will be released to the public, but are not ready yet. People don't like to get spoiled, and you may have non-writers visitng your forum (not even registered, just over here visiting and reading) and they might appriciate having discussions and screen shots kept private. Private in that Writers working on it would have access or if you ask for access just to follow the discussion.
So in this sense, I can see a forum being private that is kept from the public view, but not from members.


Apples and Oranges. If the creator of an age doesn't wish details to be made public, fine. You have the forum for the age and you have a topic: "Age X discussion: private(Creator doesn't wish details to be public). Then whomever is working on the age gets access; this would probably include the council, or not.

Now, if the council members have something that they wish to talk about in private, then they should do so via PM's. Not that I'm against them having their own private place to talk (just like many places and people have) before making something public, but because there seems to be people here that are very paranoid and are very afraid that anything discussed in private will mean the end of the world, even though things can be discussed in private anyway through PM's :rolling eyes here:

My 2 cents


Having a read only forum for council discussion is fine. Why would they need a private forum? It's been asked and never been answered. Give an example of a scenario where it may be necessary. The lack of a reason must just mean there is none. If it's discussion of GoW related business, it should be openly readable.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Chacal » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:19 pm

This is not fair. From my customer's network I have access to the forums but nothing else, and the job is boring right now, so what can I do besides arguing? :)

Back to topic: It's not the private forums I'm against (I agree it's just a multi-user PM system). I'm not against private conversations, but like Teedyo I'm against secret conversations. The difference lies in process and content.
If it's editing a text or if it's not GoW matter, it can be private.


If it's decision-making on guild matter, it should be discussed in public. Any contact of the council with Cyan, on any subject, without any exception, must be entirely public. If Cyan insists on secret, then the council must refuse to go further and must make a public post about the attempt.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Trylon » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:35 pm


I'd like to remind you that the topic is not if the GoW needs a private forum.
The topic is whether or not having a private forum is fundamentally different from secret discussions through PM's :)



That said,
I think that a conversation through PM's and emails, is in fact more secret and potentially more secretive than a private forum.

A conversation between people in an IRC e.g. is volatile, if one is not present, only possible chatlogs can give him/her the info.
A conversation through email or PM - there is no pracitcal difference between them here - has no storage beyond the mail boxes of the sender/recipient,
and are usually not easily shared when new members enter a group - e.g. an new councilmember comes in.

However, a private forum usually does store old conversations, and where there is accessible storage, there is the potential for verification.
The structure document specifies a situation where the guild mistrusts the council. In that case, a member proposal can give someone access to the private forum, where all discussions are archived. Thus he can verify what has happened. This would not be possible if all communications were done thorugh email or PM.


Chacal wrote:Back to topic: It's not the private forums I'm against (I agree it's just a multi-user PM system). I'm not against private conversations, but like Teedyo I'm against secret conversations. The difference lies in process and content.
If it's editing a text or if it's not GoW matter, it can be private.


That text should be green :P

If it's decision-making on guild matter, it should be discussed in public.

And that is what the "Internal Discussion" forum was designed for. It allows the councilors some slack, if they need to keep posts organized, but it remains publicly viewable.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Chacal » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:44 pm

Doesn't work that way (insert "I see what you're doing here" lolcat picture). You can't discuss each part of the puzzle separately. It's a usual tactic to gain incremental acceptance while avoiding discussion of the whole, a certain governement is using it presently with success on reducing individual rights and privacy... :)
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Trylon » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:52 pm

I actually wrote that before you posted :P

And, I was simply reminding that we still had that other point :)
I'm not limiting you here in any way. Well not until april 1st anyway :P
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