Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Pryftan » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:44 pm

Other guilds? I'm just talking about this one.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Nadnerb » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:50 pm

Then may I point out that
important discussions I have with other Guild leadership

is pretty vague?

Also, you say "other" appearing to imply that you'll be part of them, while in fact, you have not been appointed for any position, there are no "leadership" positions at all, there are "advising" positions, and that to have a discussion in a private forum, you would have to be one of the advisers/councilors with access. So I ask again, what on earth would you discuss in a hidden forum? Advisers can't advise anyone while only talking among themselves.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Pryftan » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:02 pm

As far as I know, BAD and I are still considered acting leadership where the forums are involved. I'm sorry if the term offended you.

The point was that, as a moderator, private forums are an easily utilized and important tool for private discussion. Have you noticed that I've offered to let you see conversations that, were they held in PM or email, you would never see at all? That if you paid attention to the important part of my post instead of the word "leader", I'm giving you something to ease your concerns? I think there are things we need private forums for, you say, prove it. Well, I will. Let us use one when we need one, and when the need is done, I'll make it public and show you the entire thing so you can see for yourself why we needed it.

What is "so secret" about private forums anyway? They're LESS "secret" than PMs and emails for the reasons I was stating: anybody can be given access at any point. And nobody ever brought up any points against using PMs and emails to communicate, here.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Whilyam » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:26 pm

May I also point out that the moderators both here and on almost every other forum on the net (let alone Uru) has "secret" moderator forums. Now what would the moderators be talking about that's "so secret"? No one asks that question.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby BAD » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:01 pm

IP addresses......

Just kidding! ;)

I have to kinda disagree with Pryftan, here. So far no one against the private forum here has made any inclination they would be willing to compromise on the subject beyond passively accepting it is there if it is put into place without their consent.

I don't think we should make any concessions to try to please a few people who disagree with representatives having private conversations as a group. If this topic has enough credence to warrant a vote, before or after the proposal vote, then someone will start a poll on it.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby andylegate » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:01 pm

Just thought I'd throw this in here:

Looking back over this entire thread, there have been 13 people that have commented on this. Out of those 13:

You had 9 in favor of Private forum
You had 4 against.

However, you also had one change their minds in a later post from "For" to "Against"

So now it would read:

8 in favor
5 against.

Still, only 13 people bothering to comment and post their feelings. You might get more response from a poll as people can vote in a poll with out having to post. I have a feeling that there are a lot of people on here that read these discussions, but are afraid to get involved (Gee, I wonder why? ).
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby BAD » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:07 pm

Not getting involved is there choice and I respect that. This was a discussion topic. It wasn't intended to solve the issue, but promote discussion on it.

I'll repeat. If someone feels this topic is important enough to start a poll. They will.

I think some people like to stir the pot, but are unwilling to actually start cooking. ;)
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Aloys » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:19 am

Most people here who are against the use of a private forum think of it negatively as if it was hiding some conspiracy or some other dark secret. It is just a way to have *private* conversations... (see the name: "*private* forum"). Never had the need to have a private conversation with some people? Same thing here. Trying to forbidding the use of a private forum is like forbidding the use of PMs or Emails, exact same thing.

Ultimately that forum would be a tool for the council members, and only them would use it. They will be the only one concerned with this; they should be the only one to decide whether they need it or not. It's like giving a job to someone while at the same time telling that person how to do the job and watching over his every move. If you hire someone let him have his way.

It's a matter of trust. If we don't trust each other then I don't even see why we are trying to elect a council.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Jennifer_P » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:09 am

Eh, I see it more as a matter of keeping control than a matter of trust. Suppose, for example, that the council has some idea like, "Hey, let's make everyone on the forum display a guild rank and department," and they have the feeling that part of the guild might object loudly to such a thing. Now, if they were to post and say, "So, we're thinking about having guild rank and department designation, fyi," then the idea could be fairly easily nipped in the bud by its critics. However, if the council were to completely create and think out arguments for their idea and answers for their opponents' criticisms beforehand (all done with ease and secrecy on the private forum) and then create a completed system for their idea... Well, then they could launch a full scale surprise attack on their opponents. Stalling arguments about different versions of the rank/department idea could be drowned out by the polished shine of the finished concept proposal, and prepared beforehand, the council could put up a united front and articulate its idea elegantly and convincingly while its unprepared opponents are still coming to grips with the idea and revving up to try to prevent it from coming to pass. The council might also try some trick like giving a "demo" version of the department designation/rank thing in every person's profile, just to show how it could work. Suddenly the question is more like "Do you want to keep things like they are now, or change them back to the old way?" rather than "Do you want this change to happen at all?" or "Do you like how this proposal we've drafted sounds, or would you change some parts before accepting it?" or "We're thinking of proposing this idea, what does everyone think?" Thus the power of inertia is removed from the side of the opponents and granted to the council.
Basically, if people know what the council is up to, they can stop or change things before they become too big and mature to be easily preventable. Also, the less efficient communication available among the council members prevents group coordination in pushing an idea and defending it from attacks. Bottom line: I think most people know subconsciously that a private forum makes it easier for the council to get things their way, and they worry that what the council may want will not be what they may want. So I think it's not that the council members themselves wouldn't trusted and in fact liked, but rather that their ideas might not be trusted or liked.
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Re: Discussion Topic: Private forum vs. PM's and Email

Postby Aloys » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:48 am

I understand what you say, and this is exactly what I mean by seeing only the *negative* side of a forum.. If we go this way we might as well prevent the use of PMs, emails, MSN or any other private way of communitcations.

The forum is just a tool, and although it might be different in some way from other communications tools, it remains a tool. It is not good or bad, it has no intentions of its own. What matters is the people using it. If we accuse a tool of allowing conspiracies then we are accusing the people using the tool. But those people were elected, and that, to me, is a question of trust.

Any situation (like the one you described) could happen the exact same way over emails. The forum is not important in itself, it's the whole question of 'control' that matters. If we want the maximum control over the council we might as well not have a council at all and keep the current way of doing things, then we'll have total control. And in some aspects the current way of doing things works well, although it is limited. But by setting up a structure or any form of authority we always give up a bit of control. And part of that control we loose is having the member of the council communicating privately; whether using emails, PMs, or a forum.
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