Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Zander » Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:39 am

Well, I think Trylon and Blade are both wrong. It's not biology and it's not computing. It's poetry. It's all in the words, man.

Destroying a Descriptive Book seems to have been something with which the D'ni were much comfier than I could be. (The idea of destroying any book gives me the collywobbles. Yes, even that one. And that one.) How would Gehn have been familiar enough with the Descriptive Book to D'ni to Write a link back to it? As far as we know he's never seen it. I would say that if we allow Linking Books to be Written by referencing the DB, then the DB should have to be there at the time--it's not just a case of jotting down a few paragraphs from memory. The language of Ages is complicated (as I'm finding, gods know) and the bits you take have to be precisely balanced against each other, or it won't work.

So, to sum up: if you want to Write a link to an Age, you either have to be in the Age or have its Descriptive Book in front of you at the time.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Owehn » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:06 am

When you say "have the descriptive book in front of you", do you mean the actual book, or would a photocopy suffice? Because if you're just referencing the book, a photocopy of it should be enough, but in that case there's still no way to be sure that the linking book links to the same Age instance as the descriptive book.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Trylon » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:47 am

Ok, how about this:

A linking book can either sync to a location in an age, or to a specific descriptive book (book, not text).
To make it sync to a place in an age, it needs to be written on that spot.

To sync it to a book, it needs certain phrases specific to the text in that descriptive book, so it can identify the book to sync to.
In those cases it links to the same default linking point as the descriptive book.
(Later it can be assigned to a specific place in the age, by adding to the text in a specific spot in the target age)
To do so, it needs to be in the vicinity (or at leas the same age) as the descriptive book it links to.
If multiple descriptive books with the same descriptive text exist in the same age, it either gets confused and picks one at random, or it picks the closest one.

Oh, and the offset idea can go, as far as I'm concerned, it was just there for more freedom, but I didn't particularly like it anyways.


About linking being just in the words:
Words in itself are meaningless, either meaningless scribbles on paper or rock, or meaningless vibrations in the air or a phone line.
They only become meaningful once an interpreter (mind or machine) links a meaning to the words.
So in essence, both the words and the interpreter are needed to give power to words. You can't have one without the other and expect it to do something.

It's the same as if I were to write Dutch text in a Phoenician character set, and post it here - you would see the scribbles, but they would be meaningless to you.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Owehn » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:05 pm

That sounds more consistent, thanks. :) But now it seems like there isn't any special point to changing the canon: to write a link using this method you essentially have to have the descriptive book in front of you - why not just link there, write the linking book, and link back? It doesn't seem worth it to me to alter canon this way, unless you have some really cool story idea that can't be made to work in the old system. ;)

And I'd like to agree with you on the "meaning not in the words" bit you've written, but now I feel like it's my duty to point out that RAWA specifically said that's not what happens:
RAWA wrote:Fan B wrote:
I think that the writer's mind changes the age - A different person could write the same words, and have them mean different things. Note however that a slavish imitation would not be the same process of 'creation', but imitation, and so the mind of the writer would not elaborate on the details put down by his/her pen. (I realize this is an enormous body of of speculation, but it explains a lot of stuff for me - the mental process of creation seems as important, or more important then the physical writing.)

The D'ni histories seem to make it clear that this was part of the skill of the Art, learning how to put exactly what you wanted into very specific words. The Books cannot "read your intent".

Then again, the DRC site says:
It is not at all clear whether or not other languages could be used [to write Descriptive Books]. There is some question as to whether there is enough room in a single Book for other languages to describe worlds that the complex D’ni characters handle routinely.
If volume is the only limitation to writing descriptive books in other languages, then it seems to necessarily follow that the books would have to "read your intent". (For if I can write a descriptive book in any language, then I could write it in a language known only to me, in which case the symbols mean whatever I intend them to.) So in the end I'd be ok with letting books "read your intent". (I think I've set a record for longest paraphrase of "that's acceptable." :D)
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Trylon » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:06 pm

Owehn wrote:It doesn't seem worth it to me to alter canon this way, unless you have some really cool story idea that can't be made to work in the old system. ;)


The maintainer suits as described in the book of D'ni are an example. In the book, there are special small linking books that fit in "nova resistant" maintainer suits. Atrus specifically writes a linking book into an unknown age for those suits.

Another example is if you want to make a prison age, don't want to use the descriptive book for the trap, but also don't want to risk leaving a linking book back.
(Yes, burning the linking book while linking back is an option, but it doesn't meet my security standards.)

Otherwise there is still the matter of linking to an age that does not have a descriptive book. If a linking book syncs to an age itself, without any sort of reference to a descriptive book, it wouldn't make sense for the linking book to shift along with some unrelated descriptive book that happend to link to the same age, but now has shifted the link. However, that would make sense if there were books that did sync to the descriptive book. As some sort of safety it would make sense to have both options available.

It would also facilitate an IC explanation of different versions of ages, or instancing:
e.g. someone distributed Age Synched linking books, but later updated the descriptive book. In this case it makes sense that some people still have "old" books, and link to the old age, while others have new Age Synched books.
If the linking books were (always) Descriptive Book Synched, every book would automatically update to the new version.

It would also be a safety if some were able to write both Age Synched books and Descriptive Book Synched books while writing. If someone accidentally forgot something (or someone!) after changing the descriptive book, an Age Synced book would make it possible to retrieve the object or person. A simultaneously available Descriptive Book Synched linking book would help to make sure you can always go to the most recent version.
(After all, we're all experimenting with the art, so we don't have the same "write once, change never" attitude as the D'ni did.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Nadnerb » Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:35 pm

The maintainer suits as described in the book of D'ni are an example. In the book, there are special small linking books that fit in "nova resistant" maintainer suits. Atrus specifically writes a linking book into an unknown age for those suits.
I'm not getting what you're referring to here. The little books inside the suits, which were designed to link the occupant back in an emergency were written in D'ni, and linked back to D'ni. The ages that Atrus sent people in the suits to were previously written D'ni ages that might have destabilized over time. Atrus didn't actually write any books at all in connection with the suits.
Another example is if you want to make a prison age, don't want to use the descriptive book for the trap, but also don't want to risk leaving a linking book back.
(Yes, burning the linking book while linking back is an option, but it doesn't meet my security standards.)
This apparently meets Atrus's security standards, because if I recall, that's how he did it in pretty much all cases.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Owehn » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:12 pm

Wow, lots to think about!
The maintainer suits as described in the book of D'ni are an example. In the book, there are special small linking books that fit in "nova resistant" maintainer suits. Atrus specifically writes a linking book into an unknown age for those suits.

I'd be more comfortable attributing that scenario from the BoD to a Wingrovism (like the statement in BoA that you need knowledge of an Age's descriptive book to write a linking book from it back to d'ni...huh?). Since whatever book the maintainers use to link to the unknown Age stays behind anyway, it doesn't need any special timing mechanism or be especially compact. (Besides, since Maintainers were the first to link to an Age, and all other sources say that the first link is made through the descriptive book, and descriptive books were in general rather large, it seems ridiculous that Maintainer Suits would require outbound linking books to be small.) The book that needs to fit the timed mechanism is the one leading back to d'ni, and Atrus&co. could easily have used maintainer stock for that.

Another example is if you want to make a prison age, don't want to use the descriptive book for the trap, but also don't want to risk leaving a linking book back.
(Yes, burning the linking book while linking back is an option, but it doesn't meet my security standards.)
The alternate linking book writing method would be convenient for writing multiple links to prison Ages, but it's easily worked around by burning a linking book on your way out. (That seems amply secure to me: how would you unburn a linking book? Cyan's also claimed that burning books was the usual method of destroying them, so it must've been secure for them too.) I don't consider this point especially weighty in deciding whether or not to disrupt canon.

Otherwise there is still the matter of linking to an age that does not have a descriptive book. If a linking book syncs to an age itself, without any sort of reference to a descriptive book, it wouldn't make sense for the linking book to shift along with some unrelated descriptive book that happened to link to the same age, but now has shifted the link. However, that would make sense if there were books that did sync to the descriptive book. As some sort of safety it would make sense to have both options available.

Writing the linking book in the Age (without explicitly referencing the descriptive book) doesn't mean that the book isn't tied to the descriptive book in some way, or that the links shouldn't shift together. Remember that the link from any book is actually "shifting" all the time as the Age evolves: even a flickering fluorescent lightbulb is enough to split an Age into instances, and the fact that in all the combined experience of the d'ni, linking books always continue to agree with descriptive books means that they must be tied together in some way. Naturally, this raises the question (as you have) of how a linking book shifts to match a descriptive book to which it has no explicit reference. The answer is a little counterintuitive, but it makes sense: Suppose you're in an Age, and you write a linking book (to that Age). Now I link in from d'ni, and at that moment, I can be sure that the link I used leads to the same Age instance as the link you just wrote, since we are both here and can wave to each other. :) Now I'd like to put the two books side-by-side and check each day that they lead to the same instance. To do that, I'll need to bring your book back to d'ni, but that's possible since there's a linking book here linking to d'ni. (Can you see where I'm going with this?) That linking book must have been brought here through another linking book to this Age - when I leave using it, your linking book is now can now be considered tied to the instance linked to by that linking book (and, through it, to the original descriptive book). (Note that there are actually other ways of comparing your new linking book to an old one, e.g. I could have brought another linking book to this Age with me, and then after writing a new descriptive book we could carry them both to a third Age and compare them that way, but the end result is always the same: consistent histories is a theorem of quantum mechanics, and this carries over to the many-worlds interpretation.) Reading back over this, it doesn't sound too clear, so I'll summarize: linking books to an Age being tied to that Age's descriptive book is a consequence of linking theory, not an assumption.

It would also facilitate an IC explanation of different versions of ages, or instancing:
e.g. someone distributed Age Synched linking books, but later updated the descriptive book. In this case it makes sense that some people still have "old" books, and link to the old age, while others have new Age Synched books.
If the linking books were (always) Descriptive Book Synched, every book would automatically update to the new version.

It would also be a safety if some were able to write both Age Synched books and Descriptive Book Synched books while writing. If someone accidentally forgot something (or someone!) after changing the descriptive book, an Age Synced book would make it possible to retrieve the object or person. A simultaneously available Descriptive Book Synched linking book would help to make sure you can always go to the most recent version.
(After all, we're all experimenting with the art, so we don't have the same "write once, change never" attitude as the D'ni did.

These are good points, but there are two separate issues here: instancing and age updates - I'll talk about them separately.

Instancing: My personal preference is toward as little IC instancing as possible, for a few reasons: In a story sense, instancing has always been attributed to Yeesha and was presumably implemented through bahro methods (which we're incidentally trying to avoid); the d'ni never had instances and they managed. :) In a gameplay sense, my preference would be for there to be many distinct areas, each with a single (IC) instance, so that people can agree to meet here or there without bothering with invitations and sharing. In a linking theory sense, instances are awful: there's no way to determine which changes are propagated through instances and which instance are sources of change propagations and... it's a mess. :D OOC instances I don't have a problem with. (E.g. people's default personal areas will probably all be OOC instances of each other, modulo some minor customizations. Like Bevin.) Apart from that, I'd much rather that every IC case of "This Age is an instance of that one" be attributed to "These two Ages have different descriptive books with identical text." Which brings me to...

Age updates: As you point out, and I hadn't thought of before, people may wish to keep links to old versions of their Age instances even as others wish to update their Age versions. I'd say that each update should be classified as one of three types. Either:
  • Everyone must update the Age. For example, the author wants all Age instances to have a volcano erupt as part of the Age's story.
  • The update is optional or randomized, but is a small change. For example, the author implements a subtle change to the Age's weather patterns that is conceivably attributable to natural forcing in the Age's environment.
  • The update radically changes the Age in a way that no (probable) natural phenomenon would entail, but people may wish to keep links to old versions. For example, the landscape is abruptly changed and structures are relocated.
Each of the three cases can be handled in multiple ways, even assuming that instances arise from duplicate descriptive books. Respectively:
  • This update could be due either to a natural result of the Age's initial conditions, seen or unforeseen by the author, or to the author mass-editing the stock of descriptive books. Which one is the actual cause depends on the storyline. :)
  • This could be due to natural variation in the different instances, or to people requesting that their instances' descriptive books be individually updated with a demonstrated change.
  • This could either be a case of the Ages' descriptive books being updated as in the previous case, or it may be that the author merely wrote new descriptive books and changed the nexus entry to the new version. In either case, you could request to keep your old instance and get a new one.
Since it's that last one that's the most interesting, I'll expand with an example. Suppose Andy has mass-produced a bunch of Nighttime Camp Bravo descriptive books and distributed linking books to them as a way of simulating instances. Now he wants to make the radical change to Daytime Camp Bravo. He can do this in one of at least two ways:
  • First, announce to everyone that he has a new version of the Age coming out.
  • Those who don't want the update (or want both versions at once) should contact him and say so.
  • Everyone else gets their corresponding descriptive book altered to the new version.
  • Those who wanted both Age versions get a brand-new, already-updated instance. The instance they already have is left unchanged.
OR:
  • Andy mass-produces a whole new range of Daytime Camp Bravo descriptive books, one for every currently existing instance of Nighttime Camp Bravo.
  • In the nexus, he replaces every linking book to a Nighttime Camp Bravo descriptive book with a corresponding linking book to Daytime Camp Bravo, relabeling it if desired.
  • Those who want to keep a link to the old version (or left belongings there) tell him so. He adds those books back to the nexus, allowing those people access to both versions.

The result is that even under the strictest interpretation of canon, there's still room for people to maintain links to different versions of Ages.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby D'Lanor » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:45 pm

I don't have time to read through all of this but let me just say this: Some time ago I proposed that there should be no linking to Cyan ages. The reasons behind that are purely technical. You will (note: "will", not "may") screw up the logical concept behind the original ages, no matter how careful you are. People disagreed with me.

Now it is my turn to disagree. If I want to have a portal in my age there will be a portal. Nobody is going to tell me what my age should look like, thank you.
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Re: Linking rules for D'Nay (and Explorer Ages in general)

Postby Aloys » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:52 pm

I honnestly think this whole 'canon' thing never made sense, if only because it was thrown out the window with each new game in the series, Uru being the final nail in the cofin. I'm sure RAWA and all the Cyan peeps had many headaches (and even heartaches) because of that, but that's just the way it is.

Linking rules were altered various times according to various circumstances, in the end linking rules are mostly here to support a gameplay. Prison books in Myst/Riven, Relto books in Uru, etc. We can argue all day about it; but it is the sad truth. D'ni might be a coherent universe in theory, but in practice the Myst and Uru series are games that call for specific gameplay needs, and the nice theorical 'canon' is bended with every new game to fit those needs.

Rand said numerous times how story comes first for him when developping a game or an Age, and how they writes a story first and then adapt the gameplay around it. And I'm sure that's how it is most of the time, but the Linking Rules are certainly not part of it. :) Relto books were created because Uru had a new gameplay very different from the rest of the series due to the real time 3D and 'platform' elements, and that forced them to develop the panic linking idea.

You want to (maybe) create a whole new game? Ask yourselves what is the gameplay you want and then you can wrap the story canon and the linking rules around it.

Personally I'm very fond of the 'old school' rules of Myst/Riven. They established a specific set of rules, with strict limits which made story and gameplay all the more exiting. With Uru and all Yeesha's stuff, anything became possible, and it's just not fun anymore IMO. You know you're going too far when you start including time travelling in your scenarios. I do like some of what they did with Yeesha, I just think it's too radically different from the Myst series, and in the end I don't buy it. That's just my opinion.
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