A D'ni Romance Age? haha

[Rhee]

Okay, so i have been doing a bit of research, and have a tentative backstory for a "discovered" age. But i'd love a bit of feedback, some suggestions, and perhaps some historical knowledge that one or the other of you may have. Here goes!

I would call this age "Song" or "Aria" or something along that line, though using the D'ni word rather than English (obviously). It would be primarily garden or jungle-like, with brief snippets of the non-organic thrown in (think stone outcroppings, a few man-made structures). A real-time day/night cycle, with lots of aurora in the sky at night. There will be lots of unique and very special plants that will have a lot to do with the puzzle solving aspect of this age.

Backstory that I currently have in mind is this: A young Writer, whoever he may be, wrote this age in his spare time as a gift for the woman he loved, a talented member of the Guild of Musicians. Maintainers approved it. The woman, thrilled by the beauty of the age and the glorious music she could create within it, was soon wed to the Writer and they lived happily ever after.

The age won't necessarily have actual D'ni instruments in it per se, but the vegetation and other structures will resemble them, and will function as instruments... bamboo-like flute-plants; symbiotic vines stretched between branches of trees, working like harps; gourd-like fruits that produce various drum sounds... you get the idea.

Here's where the puzzles would come in... the instrument-flora would be found near various crystalline structures, and when the correct chord frequency resonates in these crystals, it would open a passageway inside of them. Inside would be... i don't know what yet! Certainly a switch that will keep the door open after the sound ceases, maybe an item to collect, or just a quiet place to reflect and watch the stars, or an activation switch that enables the insturment outside (or a similar one that is inside) to be played of it's own accord. Each crystal structure, when opened, would serve as an amplifier, and eventually the age is filled with a whole orchestra of music. Things are still tentative at this point. One thing that I want to incorporate though, is that the crystal rooms could be opened either by the instrument-plants, OR by a voice (or several voices in chorus) at the correct frequency. The woman for whom the age was written could have walked through it and sang her way into most of the rooms, without having to actually use the instruments, except in cases where multiple simultaneous notes were required.

The unlocking of all the crystal rooms (and their indivdual songs) would provide access to an ampitheatre area, which would be the focus of the sonic waves, providing a place for many to gather and listen to the music.

Clues to solve the age can be provided through a journal written by a DRC researcher (or whoever), indicating notes or chords that are relevant. This age would require the player to learn the basics of D'ni musical notation (just as Riven required us to learn D'ni colours and numbers).

It wouldn't be a "journey" age, or even a "mystery" age... just a pleasant place to visit, and for musically inclined friends to get together and jam. Possibly, a group of patient and co-ordinated individuals could man each of the crystal rooms, play its instrument, and give live concerts. haha!

So? What do you think? Praises? Criticisms? Suggestions for improvement? And how far off am I with the social development of the backstory? (ie. could a Writer just make an Age to give to someone, without a commission?) Also... I like to write and to make music and sing and even draw concept art etc... but I am not a programmer (at least not yet).... so if this one is ever going to fly, I'mma need a lot of help!

[Jojon]

The age of M'arhee-Su. ;)

The one thing that made me decide not to reply to this, when it was first posted, was the matter of how you'd make flora (and maybe even fauna), that constantly grows and changes and withers, remain as it is and in place and in tune and even just keep producing the same type of sound, over any span of time.

That may not be as much of a problem as I figured, however. There are several ways to make these sort of things part of the puzzle. You could, for instance, have plants that you tune by altering fluid levels or chopping them to length and maybe just catching a fast-growing plant during the right time in its development to produce the right timbre and/or amplitude and tone. Some could have been artificially stunted in growth, by the old gardeners, or just cut down.

The chambers could contain man-made full instruments, that are based on the natural ones that unlocked them and replicates, or synthesises, if you prefer; their sounds, but in a more controlled and lasting manner.
These instruments could have sound boxes, that would compress, direct and focus the audio onto the amphitheatre dome, to make the concert scenario another bit more plausible.

Don't know whether that counts as proper feedback... :7


EDIT: Oh dear... I should have reread properly, when I revisited this topic - most of what I wrote, was already in your original post. :P

[Rhee]

Lol Jojon. That definitely counts as feedback!

I am still thinking about the flora/fauna instruments, and most of the thoughts you mentioned had come to mind... how could a growing, changing instrument remain in tune as each day passes by?

But the best idea I have come up with so far is this: that no plant is a worthy instrument until it is mature. And it is the maturity that maintains its integrity. Using an example of a harp-tree, I will explain what comes to mind:

As the tree develops, it's genetic code requires it to make a large, hollow area which would work as a soundboard. As each year passes, rather than adding an annual ring like a tree would, the harp-tree adds a new filament, which effectively replaces the previous year's filament. A young harp-tree would only have four or five filaments, one that was five yeras old, one that was four years old, one that was three, etc etc. An older harp-tree could have three dozen filaments, each one at a different length and therefore at a different pitch, but the shortest (read newest) would resonate at the same pitch as the shortest filament of any of the other harp-trees in the forest. So if the puzzle was originally created in respect to a young tree, those necessary pitches would still be available in an older tree, they would just be "newer" and perhaps harder to access because as the filaments increase, so does the size and height of the soundboard-trunk. And in order to get really deep bass tones or even sub-sonic ones, you would have to find a really old tree! Haha!

Of course, there has to be a REASON for such a genetic code. I personally haven't determined what I might like it to be yet, whether something of a "natural selection" sort or something else. Maybe a particular bird developing in symbiosis that pollinates the flowers that bloom on the youngest filament respond only to a particular frequency when they approach for feeding and pollination? We're still in that beautiful country of speculation at this point haha!

I will draw up a few sketches of what I am thinking for instruments and post them soon. Also, a few sketches of what i perceive the crystal structures to look like. AND! I like the idea of a literal D'ni instrument inside the structures better than a plant-replica. And in addition, a cannen like what plays our music in Relto, that the player could record their musical plinkings on in the crystal structure, then leave running as a loop so that all the crystals can have their songs playing steadily, thereby combining and allowing access to the final ampitheatre area.

okay. I have to stop. lol [/endramble]

[dendwaler]

To give a genetic code to a tree and to make that code reasonable and logic seems difficult to me.
I can imagine that the trees or plants live in symbiose with a bird.
Only when the trees are big enough after some years the bird will choose her tree.
She cuts a hole in it to make a nesting place.
Different breeds of woodpeckers makes different sized holes, leading to a different sounds.
The size of the hole remains constant once cutted out.
After the birds leave the nest, then the snares will be formed from lianas.
The lianes makes the vibrating sounds when the wind blows using the hole as a soundboard.
The lianas makes it impossible for the bird to use this nest again, he will have to cut a new one.
This opens a way to have more holes in one tree when it was nested by different breeds and slowly form flutelike instruments.
Slow turns of the trees brings the holes into another position, so it will resonance with the wind forming a melody in relation to its rotation.
I image that it will be like the tree is dancing on her own tones.

This could be an alternative/addition to your suggestion.

I like your idea of making instruments part of the gamestory.
I have been playing with a similar idea when creating some new non existing instruments in turtleisle which where made of animal horns, but simply was not able to realize it being still in the first steps of agecreation.

i am looking forward for your sketches.

[Jojon]

Aha. I like your description of the Harp-tree. Are we talking a perfectly "linear" growth progression, or a bit of a spiral, or helix one - I kind of wonder a bit about what a golden ratio scale would sound like... Maybe I should google it, or set one up. :7

The one, slightly wierd, concept that is buzzing inside the void behind my forehead at the moment, is a large, very thin-but-hard-walled tree trunk, inside of which you'd try to encourage a colony of bee-like creatures to take up residence, potentially producing a droning sound, coming out of a larger, open end. :P


Perhaps some puzzles could have you seeking the right value for properties that are charateristic to that particular instrument, rather than always looking for the right chord.
I.e; instead of a set of frequencies, maybe for one puzzle you'd try to find the right ranges and maybe progression of glissandos/portamentos and for another one you'd want pulsing vibratos at the right resonance, or trills of some description. Some deep booming sound might leave you just going for making it loud enough... :9
There are probably many ways to vary each too, such as matching Chladni patterns to frequences.

I haven't looked to see whether the Musical Society has created D'ni symbols of any sort, for various musical terms, but maybe each of these puzzles could be marked with such, as part of the learning experience.


I like the cannen idea very much, although it'd somehow feel more pleasing as a sequencer type recorder than an audio one. Their inclusion would allow a single player to set up a whole full orchestra piece, which is neat -- I quite enjoy watching people doing one-take recordings using a looper.
Slap in a central console, a'la stage mixer, where you could save your entire piece as an ASCII file on your own computer and maybe share it in the form of note-rolls inside the console room and we might have something quite interesting, besides real-time performances. :7

While I find myself quite excited about some of the possibilities, I figure GUI and Network -timing, -suitability and -responsiveness, might be a serious issue. :)


I once made a half-hearted start at an amphi-theatre age, where I figured plays and choir performances could be staged, but alas never went far with it and what little assets were produced has been ripped out for use elsewhere - had that not been, I might have been able to quickly provide you with a starting point, modelling-wise. Sorry. :P

[Rhee]

Haha! I like the bee idea, that's interesting... I will have to do some sketching.

Anyway, I got thinking about what dendwaler said about the genetic code stuff, and also what I said about the genetic code sutff, and then I thought "hang the code!". This wouldn't be the first instance when something grew or happened a certain way without any particularly logical reason, right? Edanna for instance... All the plants and organisms there lived and grew and changed and went about their lives independent of the puzzles that Atrus designed there, and yet, they were part of the puzzles, and all the puzzles still worked. I mean, he made them for when Sirrus and Achenar were children, and yet they still functioned just fine, without any apparent maintainance, long after the boys had grown up and gone on to their merry imprisonment. Granted Atrus was well-known for bending rules, so perhaps there could have been a "gardener" aspect to this Age, but I'm really starting to think that there doesn't necessarily need to be an evolutionary reason for the plants of this place to be the way they are.

See below my vision for the harp-tree. Each filament is actually TWO branches, that get tangled at the middle and fuse together, so as the tree grows, new material is added from both ends of the filament, making grow longer and deeper in pitch, while new filaments tangle and fuse closer to the curve of the trunk each year. This part could definitely use a gardener's touch, as the tree would not likely do such a thing of it's own accord...


And I also have a sketch of a percussion instrument of sorts... I know, I know, it looks the volcanic protuberances in Eder Gira... but its a good shape, that looks quite botanical while still being able to serve the purpose I intend. They would make something of a "blooop" noise... I imagine the bulbs would have a leathery texture, and filled with rainwater or even a mixture of water and sap or nectar, and that they could be thumped with a stick or the palm to make a muted percussionary sound. As I have scribbled on the sketch, the many different sizes and shapes, coupled with manual changes to the liquid level, could give a multitude of drum notes.


Regarding the musical symbols, the DMR does have a fairly extensive amount of info on D'ni music theory... That is where the idea for using chords as the keys came about... on each door to the crystal rooms, i would have the chord structure notation indicated quite clearly... And for a member of the Guild of Musicians, they would be a simple thing to open... But for a new explorer, while the clue is right there, the explorer would have to learn both the meaning of the notation, as well as how it related to the local instrument (ie. chord to be played is C, E, G, or C major, but which stings/whistles/chimes would be mapped as those notes?).

I am not a programmer, but from what i have gleaned from tutorials and such, i realize that all of this would be a python nightmare, not to mention the timing issues you mentioned Jojon. But it's fun to dream

EDIT: Fixed picture sizing... one was too big to see all of it.

[dendwaler]

Beautifull sketches!
Besides the coding work, (i really am a noob in that) i see a problem for every object that changes shape (in size).
From my experience its not possible to export that from Blender to Plasma. only rotations of complete objects, no armature animation on Vertex groups.
I don't know if the problem is only the PyPRP or that the Plasma engine itself cannot handle that.
I am shure that Branan or D'Lanor can shine a light over this. May be his new engine can handle this smoothly.
On relto you actually can't see the tree growing. It is replaced by another larger tree after a few times linking in and out i think.

[Rhee]

I don't think the plants would really need to grow... I mean... the trees in Kadish don't grow... the trees in Kemo and Delin don't grow... the trees in Channelwood don't grow, for that matter. While the idea of regular updates for growth is cool, I wouldn't think it was truly necessary. And like the Relto tree, if it WAS decided that any of the plants needed to get a smidge bigger, then they could be effectively "replaced" rather than asking them to do a year-long animation to go from size A to size B.

[D'Lanor]

Beautifull sketches!
Besides the coding work, (i really am a noob in that) i see a problem for every object that changes shape (in size).
From my experience its not possible to export that from Blender to Plasma. only rotations of complete objects, no armature animation on Vertex groups.
I don't know if the problem is only the PyPRP or that the Plasma engine itself cannot handle that.
I am shure that Branan or D'Lanor can shine a light over this. May be his new engine can handle this smoothly.
On relto you actually can't see the tree growing. It is replaced by another larger tree after a few times linking in and out i think.

Plasma can handle scaling animations but this has not been implemented in PyPRP 1.

<shameless plug> btw, an example of a musical puzzle can be found in Pahts shell 415. </shameless plug>

[Jojon]

Your concept art is indeed lovely and would fit right into explorer journals in the age. :)

Two branches that joins together - aha - I figured it would be more something like the filament beginning along the trunk and then parting from it, due to growth. I never realised just how traditional-harp-like the structure would be either - it's a very interesting concept due to the non-uniform growth rate along the trunk (I figure elongation would have to be the most at the bend and less at the root and top).

It would be interesting if the meeting of the branch ends is an actual physical joining of male and female flowers, or rather (for cross pollination purposes) a female flower and a receptacle on the male one, onto which insects deposit pollen from other male flowers, whilst picking up this one's, along with its nectar. Purpose, of a sorts, for the odd structure. :7


Will you be attempting any 3D modelling and exporting to URU of your own, or try to find somebody to team up with?

If the former, There are three options available:

* Blender (an open source 3D modeller/renderer) older than 2.5x, with a 1.x version of the PyPRP export scripts. As Dendwalder mentioned, there are quite a few things that we can not do, with it, but almost all the the basic stuff exports and this setup is what most of us (AFAIK) are using.

* Blender 2.5x and up, with a 2.x version of PyPRP. PyPRP 2 is currently in a very early stage of development and nowhere near as complete as PyPRP 1, but there are a few things it can do, that the older versions can not.

* Cyan's own plugin for 3DS_Max. It can, as one would expect, do everything that Plasma can handle, but 3DS Max is a very expensive piece of software and, on top of this, the plugin requires an older version that is difficult to source these days - at least through regular channels.