Product of Brainstorming meeting

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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby bluewyvern » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:10 pm

I should clarify my responses, too, since 1a and 2b seem incompatible: I want the mine to be run by indigenous people, but I would like the surface to be a barren and inhospitable place. These people are technically advanced, so they can build the underground facilities to support the workers. Think of explorers in Antarctica. They either came from somewhere else, somewhere nicer, in the Age (braving this environment just to exploit the resources), or they live not far away, in a settlement that is also perhaps underground or relies heavily on technology for life support.

I like the idea that the ending is a rewarding view of the surface: the bubbly, glassy surface and maybe spectacular clouds caused by the gases released into the atmosphere. No visible life, or maybe only some very scrubby plants. If the chemists escaped, perhaps we can see some evidence of their getaway...tracks in the ground leading off into the distance and maybe a broken vehicle they left behind.

As far as whether these will be D'ni, New Guilds or natives -- there is one more important aspect of development that this choice will affect, and that is design for the buildings, furnishings, machinery and so on. If it's original D'ni or borrowed/refurbished D'ni with modern additions, that will look one way, and if it's a new native civilization, then it will be different and have its own distinct look. We can proceed with layout and puzzle design and all, and even write two sets of journals if you really want, knowing that one is eventually going to get trashed, but we really ought to know what we're doing before we get to the visual design and modeling stage.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby ChaosSong » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:24 pm

bluewyvern wrote:... we really ought to know what we're doing before we get to the visual design and modeling stage.


Apparently, bluewyvern, this stage is going to be a long time in coming, so my thought was that in the meantime we could generate a few somewhat fleshy designs that we can make choices over when we learn exactly what kind of tools we will be given. When we eventually get to visual design and modeling then we can blow the dust off of our designs and pick through the different versions to decide what works best.

The other thing is that I would really like to see your version of the story all layed out, you've said enough to get me interested, but I can't see how you're going to make it work and I'm all anticipaion to read your version unfold.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby Gorobay » Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:03 pm

bluewyvern: I think your story idea is great. We should definitely go with something like this.

ChaosSong: I don't think we should have NPCs in fictional present-day guilds. That would be very confusing as far as IC is concerned. I think if the "present-day explorers getting gas" idea is used we could say that a group of writers is in charge in an executive way, or they just drop by the age every so often to pick up the gas, and the natives do all the manual labor.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby bluewyvern » Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:23 pm

Okay, let me try to lay out my impressions of this Age from all that I've been reading.

This region is a broad wasteland covering a large underground reservoir of these valuable, volatile gases (a few different types, which can be tapped by drilling to different depths, where they reside in strata). The slow release of these gases over time to the surface has made the ground into a glassy, bubbly material. (In my mind, it's yellowish, and the soil in the low areas between the bubbles is a darker reddish brown.) The gas content in the atmosphere also makes it inhospitable to most life, and only a few small, scrubby plant forms grow here. The pollution has also created the most spectacular and beautiful cloudscapes, swirling blues and purples and oranges and reds. Go wild.

As I said, the miners probably traveled here from another part of the planet to mine for these valuable gases, working here in shifts of perhaps a few years before returning home. Alternatively, they come from a settlement some miles away, which is either also underground, or encased in domes, or surrounded by atmospheric generators to purify the air -- something to counteract the environmental conditions and support life. (We wouldn't see any of this, but their journals would mention home.) They are technologically advanced, close to modern but with some elements seeming a bit more advanced, some seeming slightly retro.

The disaster happens, which ignites some of the gas and damages the machinery. I like the idea that it is caused somehow by the first person to link in, or there can be the miner-chemist intrigue, where the chemists blame the miners for doing something wrong.

Because of the damaged machinery, the crew is trapped, and the miners and chemists disagree on how to escape. This part needs work -- I'm not exactly sure how the chemists escape. It can't be welding together the broken door, because then wouldn't the door have been fixed when they left? Shouldn't we be able to just follow them? The miners, however, want to use the back access tunnels (different from the front door). Perhaps these are shafts around the gas pipes, which run from the mine level to holding tanks on the surface where the gases are periodically collected and transported away. The chemists warn that the shafts are too unstable, they might collapse or the pipes might leak. The chemists' solution takes time, though, and the miners aren't willing to wait, so they set off for the shafts and leave the chemists behind. Sure enough, some of the shafts are already collapsed, and one has a leak. When the miners enter one of the shafts, a cave-in does them in. (It's the only way I can think of to kill them without us having to come across the bodies.) If the explorer tries to follow them, the only accessible tunnel has a gas leak. It's reached by passing through an airlock. When the explorer enters the airlock, they seal the door behind them, and when they open the other door, the gas starts to seep in and they panic-link.

So the only way out is the chemists' way, though I'm not sure what that would be. Maybe there are two main doors, both broken. The miners get through one the same way you do, but then do something on the other side to seal it up once they're through, to protect against another gas leak/explosion. So the only thing for you to do is to fix the other broken door. As mentioned, you have to mix gas to fuel the torch, which was exactly what the miners did, since the explosion maybe blew up or buried their fuel stores, and they had to start over by drawing new gas from the mine. They didn't leave any extra, of course, so you'll have to mine more gas and mix it properly, referring to their notes, to fuel another torch, then repair the second broken door to make your escape.

The door leads to a tunnel going up to the surface, which is your reward. You only get to look though, not touch; you're inside a glass-domed airlock, 360-degree view of the landscape. Because of the air outside, no one ventures out without a suit. The suits are either gone, if both doors lead to the same airlock, because the chemists already took them, or damaged, if it's a second airlock (and you would be able to see the other dome a short distance away). You also see a few sheds or maintenance buildings, and the storage tanks. You can see the tracks the chemists left when they left in their vehicle, vanishing into the distance. There is one vehicle left, visibly damaged (blast damage or maybe just with a wheel off or something), just to make it clear how they left.

That's pretty much all I've got so far...
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby Sudre » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:06 pm

I've been lurking for a few weeks now and first just want to say that I like the direction the GoW is going. They seem to really have it together!

So onto my thoughts.

I've read the entire thread and most of the sight. This age really inspires me. I have some experience in this area altho I have never actually been a miner. I have worked in an underground man-made 2 mile long shaft for a pump storage electrical plant.

I went out and looked at a few things and it got me thinking. From reading the thread the most popular story is the mining was already going on when discovered... now that leads to more journals than just the Chemist and the Miners.

If you are talking about a civilization that has advanced enough to think, "Oh, I might die!" and they have equipment to use to mine.. , then you will find lots of log books.
LOGS BOOKS suggestions.. and there are many more.
Elevators
Fire protection
evacuation
Equipment routes/routing
gate entry logs (mine/shaft entry)
daily gas readings (all mines have had this for a very long time now)
geological surveying
structural surveying
Boiler/power plant
Cost records/escrow

All of those logs can be used to give hints to solutions and ways to escape. The evacuation plan could even be found heavily damaged but still give great hints about the way the miners would have escaped.

I kinda like the idea of the writer finding the mine with ppl there and supplying equipment to advance the abilities of the natives but why would natives be mining for gas if they did not have their own tech?
Gas is drilled and pumped out not dug for... safer cheaper, faster and easier.

So the natives had to be mining for something else. The explorer/writer wanted gas. The natives are happy to give up the useless (to them) gas.. they want the coal, iron, crystals, (or whatever). So the explore gave them some tech to help keep the blowing up problem and deaths from lack of oxygen down and the natives gave him the gas collected by the tech.
All mining has the problem of gas pockets and the natives could be having serious issues with the pockets of gas. The writer/explorer could show up in the age, take a look at what was happening and told the natives, "Hey I could take that gas off your hand and save lives at the same time! All you need is this X equipment which I can get for you. All you have to do is give me the gas the equipment collects."
The miners might not like this idea because the owners of the mine start thinking it'd be easier and cheaper to sell gas not mine for minerals.
The Chemists could be kinda new.. to look at the uses for the gasses collected.
They invent a primitive torch/welder.
The miners really see their jobs being threatened.
(Get the general idea.)

The gas delivery system could be like an over-sized banking air tube system. A cylinder (about fire extinguisher size) is filled by the equipment and then the cylinder is placed into the air tube and shot up to the control room or gas testing room. The air tube system could use clear PVC/plastic with glued joints. Easy to link to the age in pieces for Assembly and it even gives a great cut away scene of the cylinder shooting up the tube. The air tube system is used rather than just piping the gas out because it allows for several different kinds of gas to be transported without clearing the line out each time. Remember when piping gas around you can't mix gases, that would be disastrous. You have to purge the line each time with water. I can go into much more detail on this air-tube system if you like the idea.

I am going to be REALLY busy for the next week (working from 7am-3pm then 7pm-11pm! each day) or two but I will try to check in. I could do some research for you and look at how easy/feasible it is that the writer of the age could supply this equipment even without the use of D'ni tech. I am pretty sure you can pick most of the stuff you will need up off of an e-bay system but for industrial use. I almost bought a water turbine once just to play with it.

As a note, it is my opinion that GoW should be writing ages not finding them. Just from reading the Book of Myst, I get the idea you aren't going to find much. I also think that the 5 to 7 years we have been down in these caverns, and much of that WITHOUT the DRC, we could have learned to write our own ages much like Gehn. We just don't have the ink, books or pens to write with...yet.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby ChaosSong » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:34 pm

bluewyvern wrote:That's pretty much all I've got so far...


It's an excellent rough draft bluewyvern; I can tell you have an aschetic eye for a good-looking landscape. I like how you have different science behind the same glassy/sandy surface I was imagining. Your end-scence description was also well done.

You might want to consider the Chemists dying in the machine room. Maybe the gear-assembly fell in front of the door, blocking their escape route. The moment when they snapped the shaft for the first-time was when they knew they were all doomed. A really hot fire (or acidic gas for that matter) could reduce their bodies into inoffensive piles of ash. Maybe the miners were working in the tunnels at the time and caught on the far side of the cave-in.

You also might need a little more of the past in your story: What are the natives like? What are they using the gas for that's worth taking such risks to retrieve it? Is there something we can learn from them or their culture?

One thing I've learned is to never throw an idea away. An alternate set of journals could easily be adapted to a new project and improved on reflection.

Sudre:

Wow, thanks for joining the discussion! Your experience will be invaluable if this project ever sees the light of day.

I love the air-tube system this is exactly what I first pictured but you also gave all kinds of good reasons why a system like this would be here.

I also really enjoy the thought of the Writer as a character in the story, perhaps the Writer him/herself left a journal about this age he/she had created.

I've pretty much given up on discoveries of ancient D'ni, my only last thought is maybe we could have "repaired" an existing age to make it clear Maintainer standards, but I won't cry if that idea dies. I do still like the idea of our own people in a foriegn age - would make it easier to relate to the characters than alien natives, but I'm willng to try that in another project if people aren't ready for that.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby Jennifer_P » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:50 am

Well, here's my thoughts on the question of who the miners and chemists should be.
Option 1: Having them all be members of modern fictional guilds. I don't think it would go over very well; over in SR we've had to deal with some of the problems of inventing storylines, and one of the basic rules we follow is not to invent things that are verifiably non-existent in real Cavern life. (unverifiably is a different story!) People would just be like, "Oh yeah, well then how come I've never heard of the Guild of Miners?" And someone else says, "The Writers made them up, they don't really exist." "Oh." The closer one's claims match up to Cavern reality, the better. Now if you were to start real life Guilds for the Miners and Chemists, however puny and with however many fictional members, then you could certainly use them in this context. Aside from that issue, there is also the problem of time and motive. Mining is a serious business, costing much money and taking years of planning and geological surveying. We would have to deal with issues like, "Who's buying the gas?" and "Who's paying for the mine?" and "How did all of this equipment get built up so fast?"
Option 2: Having them all be natives. This option really has no IC believability issues; the major problem is that we wouldn't know the language of the natives and thus stuff like logs becomes a problem.
Option 3: Having them be natives who we're working with. We still have some unanswered questions, such as "Why do we want the gas?" but there is probably a good answer for that question somewhere. Alternately, maybe we don't even want to be helping them mine the gas...perhaps our interest in them is purely anthropological. I could see a Maintainer scaring the wits out of one of the natives in some dark tunnel and then having to show them that he wasn't the monster from the black lagoon. Timewise, It'll probably take you some 2 months at least to complete the Age after the tools come out, so there would be enough time for rudimentary communication to develop in an IC sense. To illustrate, you could have a timeline like so:
Start: OOC and IC the Age Writing begins...
1st month: IC first contact, language acquisition begins, OOC Age partially complete and unreleased...
2nd month: IC mining disaster occurs, and logs of the miners and chemists are translated by the people who made first contact as they try to piece together the disaster. OOC, the Age is inspected by Maintainers for real and released.

Ah yes, and finally, I heard somebody say that we're close to being done with this project? Hehe, no way dude! :D There's still pleeeenty of stuff to work before the Age will ever need modeling. For starters, how about some detailed, realistic concept art of every object and room in the game from multiple perspectives? And what about ambient sounds of water dripping, doors opening, gears grinding, drills spinning etc? Gotta collect those... And you'll need textures to use on the models too. And if you go with having natives, then you'd need to invent their language and a script for it, lifestyle, etc. as well. Lots of fun left to be had here! 8-)
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby ChaosSong » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:39 am

Jennifer_P wrote:Ah yes, and finally, I heard somebody say that we're close to being done with this project? Hehe, no way dude! :D There's still pleeeenty of stuff to work before the Age will ever need modeling...


We're almost done with what we can do so far, prevailing opinon is that the artists and modlers etc... won't even get started until there is more from Cyan. So that leaves us with just design to work on. The project as a whole is certainly nowhere near completion.

As far as the Guild of Miners etc.. being absent from the cavern, I was hoping that people would be able to suspend disbelief a bit more, but you could very well be right about this. Maybe when GoMe is up and running we can give them a few fake news items about these Guilds to alert people to their existense? (just an early morning idea) I'm not really worried about the time difference between the IC story and OOC production time. It may be glaring the first time the area is open for exploration, but that problem will fade away as time goes by. A Journal dated Oct. 2007 won't look brand new forever.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby Pryftan » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:19 am

I don't see how anybody thinks artists or modellers won't start until there is more from Cyan. We've been doing TONS of work on Ages already.
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Re: Product of Brainstorming meeting

Postby ChaosSong » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:58 am

Pryftan wrote:I don't see how anybody thinks artists or modellers won't start until there is more from Cyan. We've been doing TONS of work on Ages already.


Well that's good news, and not what I heard from other people.

All the same, I personally am not going to be able to assist much with that stage of development and plan to start another design when we hit it. Of course, I am not telling anyone else what to do, I hope someone with more knowledge than I will shepheard it from there. I guess I'm just letting everyone know that I'm not good for much past design.
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