Architectural modeling tips?

[Shoggoth]

I've noticed that, while I'm pretty good at modeling organic objects like terrain, trees, etc., anything manmade tends to come out really bland. I look at Uru's environments, and the way that every room and building fits together just seems so much more intricate than anything I ever create. This seems to come down to three problems:

1) It's hard to come up with ideas for interesting-looking buildings. I've actually gotten a lot better at this just by looking at architecture online or in real life, though. This one isn't so much of a problem anymore.

2) Unusual shapes, like the Kadish pyramid or any of the Gahreesen interiors, are hard for me to assemble. I can come up with a concept, but when I try to model it, the pieces don't fit together the way I envisioned (verts don't line up, etc.) This may have to do with my self-taught, relatively naive modeling style; I don't know. It's especially difficult when modeling with the curve modifier, but that's still the best way I can come up with to make, for example, curving bay windows. I notice the perfect interlocking symmetry of more professional work and can only wonder how such things are done.

3) I tend to texture models using basic "metal type 1," "metal type 2," "stone," etc. kinds of images, which creates little visual interest even when an object has multiple materials. I'm teaching myself how to make more interesting texture designs in Photoshop, but I'm not sure how to organize the image for applying to a model. Most tutorials nowadays focus on making full 1:1 UV maps for whole models, with much higher resolutions than Uru uses (an unfortunate side effect of modding an older game, but oh well). How much texture information is typically used in a single image? I'm really wishing I knew how to make wall textures like those in the Ahra Pahts shells...

My problem, therefore, appears to be a lack of expertise in digital art in general. That's obviously not something anyone here can help me much with (although it would be much appreciated if you somehow could). Does anyone have any tips, though, for dealing with any of the above problems?

[andylegate]

If you import some of Uru's Ages into Blender, you'll see that some of the models for buildings, walls, etc, while looking complex in game, are actually quite simple and low poly.

What gives them their detail, is not so much the modeling, but how they were textured. You can use several different textures on a model, blending many on one surface to make it very detailed. Or you can make you're own detailed textures. Take a look at this:



The bottom wall of my little atrium here seems to have a lot of detail and isn't a flat surface. Here's another shot of it behind my imager:



There seems to be a small ledge running above the imager along the wall, when in actuality, it's the texture that is doing that. The wall itself is the flat surface of a simple cylinder. Here's the texture I used:



I made this texture using Genetica and GIMP Shop. Genetica helped me make the base textures:

The green marble


The raised button like strips:


And a small strip of rock from this texture:


I also made this texture here:


Which I use as part of the base boarding along my texture. This was made using a glassy marble texture from Genetica:


And a Celtic symbol I found on the web. I took the symbol in GIMP shop, made it into a black and white image, and then erased all the white, leaving the black markings on a transparent background. I then copied that as a layer on the glassy marble and burned it into it, making it also the size I want.

The dark areas on my final texture, I air brushed in in GIMP Shop.

The texture by itself will help make the wall look more 3D and detailed, but still not quite all that realistic while in Blender or Max:



What helps is your lighting. How we light things in our Ages will really have an impact on how things look in game (just as they do in real life). Here's what my area looked like before I had the lighting the way I wanted it:



But get the lighting right, and things start to look really good:



Having detailed models are important of course. But when it comes to large things like buildings, etc, you'll find that a simple model with a complex texture works wonders.

I've found that if I need to start making detailed models, that it's best to work with simple shapes that you in turn make complex. Like the globe valve I made in the pic below. It's actually just a bunch of cylinders and spheres who's meshes I've edited.



People make whole careers out of 3D modeling. For me, I find that just practice and time is what makes my models better and better.

[Perlenstern]

Thank you for that nice step by step explaination. It gives me hope to create better models by using a better texture. And it gives me an idea how to create a good texture. If you have more small examples it would be nice to see them here.

Perlenstern

[Shoggoth]

Your explanation is excellent as usual, Andy. The part about creating the wall texture helps - everybody always says "oh, take a bit of this image, a bit of that one, recite a magic spell, and you've got a texture," but they never really explain how.
My point about the intricacy of Cyan's models isn't referring to their polycount (which I know is pretty low, although higher than you might think in some places). I was more referring to their designs. For example, in Gahreesen, the training center's rooms are loaded with buttresses and assorted fixtures; the walls in D'ni are always loaded with reinforcements or columns. Kadish's moon room is particularly complex in design. I can imagine these things, and I can model them well enough, but I guess I just need practice before I can make models like that.

[andylegate]

Oh leave no doubt: creating good models and textures takes quite a bit of learning and practice.

Then top it off with learning to use the plugin (either the GoW's or Cyan's) components, etc. The learning curve is steep no mater what. Even an experience 3D Graphic artist will find something challenging in making an Age.

I have days that it seems I'm on a roll and everything looks golden. Then the very next day, everything I try to make or texture seems to look like a big pile of cow dung.....no scratch that, the pile of cow dung looks better....

I have found over the years that my mood and environment will greatly affect what I'm doing. If I'm not really in the mood to do anything, but force myself, whatever I make looks bad, and I end up having to re-do it later. Morning times and very late at night is when I seem to be my best.

Distractions: try to do your work, no mater what it is, when you're not going to be distracted. When I get the kids home from school, that's the worst time for me, as they are bouncing off the walls and need attention. Noise is a big factor too. Right now my computer is in the living room, so when they are watching TV, playing, etc, it's a big distraction for me. In the mornings and late at night, they are either at school or in bed.

Once my son Zack moves back up north with his mom for the summer, I'll have my computer room back, so I'll have less distractions.

Music: I find that if I listen to music, it helps with things. I seem to find that creative muse better when I'm listening to it. Doesn't matter what kind. I'm not going to sit here and tell you to listen to Bach or Beethoven. Listen to what you like.

Finally: Walk away. There will be times when you get frustrated, or something just won't come out right. Take a break. Even if that break means shutting down and leaving it alone for a few days. No one here is really under any kind of deadline.

Keep in mind that most of Cyan's Ages were not all put together by one person. Many people that were artist played a role in creating a single Age. From someone who drew up concept art, to the actual models and textures.
We on the other hand are trying to where all those hats at once.

Just attempting that means you're brave. hehheheh. If you succeed in making something that at least ONE other person besides yourself likes, then you've succeeded.

I'll try to find another texture example, just keep in mind textures are not my forte. Making like the one in my post above was possible because I pulled one of Cyan's textures and studied what they did, or at least how it looked.

[tachzusamm]

First, I must second everything what Andy said - especially this part:

Finally: Walk away. There will be times when you get frustrated, or something just won't come out right. Take a break. Even if that break means shutting down and leaving it alone for a few days.

This happens to me as well. I don't do age writing each day - and I don't do it just because I have time, but when I'm in the mood to do. When I got ideas. When I've seen some nice structures, either in nature, in the city or photos from the web, and want to try if I can model them as well.

Now my own tips. As for your first question: You already answered it yourself. Looking at already existing buildings or photos of them gives you ideas. I have a folder in which I collect nice looking buildings (nature as well) with interesting structures; I store them when I stumble across them, either by a search or at random, and have a look again later to get ideas or to view closer.


Regarding your second question, I would suggest not to start with too complex structures. Take your time to play with modeling simple structures, even if you don't need them. Just to get more practice. Watch tutorial videos which tell "how to model a..." "how to extrude ..." "how to (whatever)..." this gives you ideas as well. Ideas about how to get your work done easier, and fitting.
Youtube is a huge source, and for example this source is an excellent one to get ideas:
http://www.gryllus.net/Blender/3D.html (the [Blender Video Tutorials] part).

When your objects don't fit very well together: The Ctrl key is your friend. Especially when modeling architectural things, it's essential to keep your vertices in raster. This way the chance they do align finally is much bigger.
Whenever you scale, grab or rotate things, hold the Ctrl-key down to use the snapping function. If you need finer resolutions, use the Shift key in addition (Shift+Ctrl). For more finer adjustments, zoom in - but still use Ctrl when dragging. Always. Never omit it, in no action. Right from the start.
This may cause your object to look a bit boring or straight in the first place, but you better add some random look on the final model - when you are sure you will not add more structure - this time avoiding the Ctrl key.

Finally, the chance that vertices and edges align is much bigger when you use extrude instead of combining objects together.
This way, everything does align automatically, because it keeps to be a single mesh, with shared vertices. You can separate or split it into different objects later, if needed.


Textures and their size: Well, if your age looks good does not depend so much on how detailed your textures are, but how they fit together in relation. Imagine a wall with a coarse texture, somehow blurry; this does not need to look ugly (there are MANY examples of Cyan ages with blurry walls and floor). In front of this wall assume a pillar. The scene *would* look ugly then, if the pillar's texture is too detailed. So, how detailed your texture should be (and this determines the size finally), just depends on the size of your object and how close you normally would look at it.


EDIT: Forgot something. The pivot point, and object centers. This little menu in Blender's 3D view seems to be unregarded by most users, but it's a very handy tool to get things right and easy.

pivot.png (5.17 KiB) Viewed 9173 times

Setting this right, depending on what you currently want to do, makes life really easy. There's a video tutorial in the site I mentioned above which describes well what it does and how it comes in handy.
And object centers should be considered as well. Whenever you want to rotate or scale objects or meshes, think about how vertices, edges or faces should move, then set your object center and/or pivot point accordingly, do your action - and this will be a big eye-opener, giving you the impression "oh, wait, it was THAT easy?".

[andylegate]

Okay, here's another example of texture making.

If you look at my texture in my post above, there is still something wrong with it.
Most people don't see what is wrong and think it's a good texture. In itself, it is a pretty good texture.

But there's something missing from it, if I plan on using it for someplace down in the Cavern let us say.

If you link in and walk around Ae'gura, take a good look at the textures...the majority of them have one thing in common: Damage and/or Grundge.

Things in Ae'gura are in disrepair. We have cracks....we have dirt....we have scratches......we have damage to things because of the violence that happened just before the Fall.

Cyan makes you see this in a couple of ways. One way is to have an "overlay" texture that is the cracks / grundge, etc. They uv map this texture on top of the base texture.
The other way they do it, is by having the base texture itself look like that. That's what I'm going to show you here.

One of the projects that I'm working on, I have a tunnel walk way like in Ae'gura:



I need a texture for my walkway floor that looks good, like Cyan's in the above pic. As you can see, the floor is not all nice and shiny, nor is it new looking. It has dirty grundge and small scratches and cracks in it.

First I decided to use this texture here as my base. It comes with Genetica and is called Inked Marble:



I could use just that texture, but again, it would not help give a good ambience to the place. We need to add our dirt and cracks.

I got this picture here, which is quite grundgy looking:



First I made it the same size as my marble texture: 512 x 512.
As it's a .jpg file, I had to add a transparency layer to it (.jpg's don't support transparency). Once I did that, I then adjusted the "opaqcity" of it with a slider in GIMP shop until it looked like this:



I then copied it, and added it to my marble texture as a layer, fine tuning the opaqcity of it.

I wanted to add some scratches and cracks (but not too many cracks). So I got this picture here:



Again, I changed the size of it to 512 x 512. Then again, I added a transparency layer.
Then I selected all the "blue" color in the picture and deleted it. That gave me this:



Then I copied it, and added it as another layer to my marble picture.

The result?



I thought it made it a bit more "Cavern" looking than the original. It will definately work better than the original in my Age.

Hope this helped, and BTW - feel free to use the textures I just posted (I'd upload them to http://www.texturu.org that someone started up, but I'm going on week 3 and still waiting for an email to confirm my account and add textures to it).

Oh, and CRACKS! You don't know how many times when I first started I went looking for cracks......only to not find any! Here's some you can use:

I started with this texture:



I cropped the area I wanted, and again, re-sized it to 512 x 512. I added a transparency layer. Then I selected all the off white color and deleted it. That left me with this:



Feel free to use them in your textures or as a new UV layer to add cracks.

[tachzusamm]

(I'd upload them to http://www.texturu.org that someone started up, ...

Umm... that was me.

...but I'm going on week 3 and still waiting for an email to confirm my account and add textures to it).

Oh, dang! I was under the assumption that I solved the problem that account confirmation mails don't go out. Seems not... (I so hate Linux IPTABLES firewalls.)

Well, Andy, I've activated your account manually.
(You will not get an email, but you can just use your account from now on.)

[andylegate]

got it! I just uploaded 16 textures. I'll add more later. My son is groaning that I'm slowing down his game while I upload, heheheh.

[Lontahv]

It's important to note that hi-contrast textures generally look my real in-game than ones that look grayish out of the game. I use the sharpen filter and contrast adjustment in Gimp to make sure the detail really pops out. Colorful = better (usually).