Age Lighting a conversation

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Age Lighting a conversation

Postby J'Kla » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:12 am

I have an age that I have been working on for years and the time has come for me to light this in a better way.

I am looking to have a conversation with someone who has already been down the road of dynamic lighting using Korman.

So far I have hit my age with at least one Sun lamp in order to have my avatar lit in game.

I would like to get away from this and move towards a lighting with a moodier feel.

If you want an idea of where I am starting from the age in work is going to be Enobmort and it is on Deep Island and Drizzle
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby Sirius » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:39 am

Only tested it briefly, so I don't know all about it.

Basically, you add as many lights as you want in your scene (the more lights the longer your export times will be). If you want those lights to also light up avatars, don't forget to set them as Plasma object.

Objects which should receive light should have "Shadeless" UNticked in their material boxes. You'll also need to add a "Bake Lighting" modifier to them.

By default, this modifier bakes to a lightmap (a texture which contains only the color of received light). This usually yields very good quality lighting, but also takes AGES to export - you want to make sure you keep the "Quality" dropdown to something low (this is actually the texture's resolution).
It's also possible (and often preferable since it's extremely fast) to bake to vertex colors, but vertex color lighting can look rather ugly on objects like walls and such (all objects with long faces, hard edges, and such).

(To sum up: terrains and smooth meshes should bake to vertex colors, flat objects with sharp edges like walls should bake to lightmaps if you can spare the extra export time.)

Performance wise, both baking options yield near-similar performances once in-game, although textures will take slightly more graphic memory. Nowadays it's rather negligible though. But lightmaps take a lot of time to export.

It's also possible when exporting to disable baking to lightmaps (light will instead be baked to vertex colors). This is extremely useful when debugging some logic, because you usually don't care about the lighting quality.

You can preview what your scene will look like by putting a camera in your scene and pressing F12 to create a render.

Advanced stuff, not for the faint of heart: Korman internally uses Blender's renderer to bake lightmaps, but Korman DOES hide a few panels in the World tab that have an effect on lighting (like Environment/Indirect lighting). So sometime you can switch to Blender's renderer and tweak some world settings there, which will affect the Korman export. However keep in mind Blender's lighting is a complex beast, and things like Indirect lighting, while awesome, are extremely hard to tweak.

(While I'm at it, a question for Korman devs: how feasible would it be to reuse previously-baked lightmaps when re-exporting ? This would look better than baking to vertex colors, and wouldn't require baking all the lightmaps again. Not a critical feature, but might be useful.)

Here is a picture of my test Age. It uses indirect lighting and emissive materials. Dezoom the page if you can't see it completely:
Show Spoiler

(Also, I have ReShade on top of it, which explains the "glow" around objects)
To give you an idea of how tricky it can be: I originally wanted the Age to be daytime, but couldn't for the life of me configure IL to look correctly, so had to remove the directional light and rely on object emission only.
Also, I'm still not sure if there is an option to export lightmaps uncompressed. On textureless surfaces the compression artifacts are really visible... But then you're not supposed to have textureless objects either :shrug:
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby Deledrius » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:45 am

Sirius wrote:Also, I'm still not sure if there is an option to export lightmaps uncompressed. On textureless surfaces the compression artifacts are really visible... But then you're not supposed to have textureless objects either :shrug:

I believe they should be exporting as PNG images now, so if they're not that's probably a bug. I need to check this with Hoikas.

Edit: PotS doesn't support PNG textures, so if you're still exporting to that engine it likely does compress them. This may be remedied in the future if possible. Thanks for pointing it out!
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby Sirius » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:33 pm

AFAIK they could be exported as uncompressed bitmaps, but this might not be desirable due to how heavy those are (and most of the time, properly texturing the object might be enough to mask the artifacts, I guess).
Hmm, I had another quick look, and for PotS they are compressed using DXT5. DXT1 might be better suited for the task though - if only for the smaller filesize (if I remember correctly quality-wise it should be equivalent ?).
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:39 pm

I'm going to be looking into changing them over to RLE maps for 0.09
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby J'Kla » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:40 pm

Sirius wrote:Question for Korman devs: how feasible would it be to reuse previously-baked lightmaps when re-exporting ? This would look better than baking to vertex colors, and wouldn't require baking all the lightmaps again. Not a critical feature, but might be useful.


If you are suggesting something like a buffer of stuff you have already baked for export that sounds like a good deal I had an export on my PC in the office took about 8 minutes when I ran this at home it took over half an hour. Just a slower PC things should pick up when I get my new laptop coz that is going to be way faster than the machine I am using at home.

Plus I can set it away exporting while I use my old PC for Uru, forum surfing and e-mail.
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby J'Kla » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:19 am

NOTE: This is a discussion not an appeal for changes. More about hearing what other age builders have done, and looking to see if there are methods I may have missed along the way.

Until recently I have been lighting my ages by adjusting the emission value of my textures and adding a sun lamp/s to light my avatar and that has been adequate up to a point.

Now I find I want to have some mood and directed lighting particularly now that I have the Journals working.

I have found I can get some reasonable effects by lowering the emission values and adding individual spot lamps these have increased the mood in some areas and provided secondary lighting for the Avatar that in general looks better. This works well for small areas.

Now It would be easier if I could get the object emission values to light my avatar or have spot lights that only lit the avatar and were not baking into the age environment.

I would like this to be conditional some places lighting the avatar from the emissions of the environs would be better but in other places (in the same age) directed lighting would work giving a moodier feel.

I have also noticed a massive overhead in exporting, from using spot lights for directed lighting over this generic sun type lighting.

It would be better for me if the environs lighting made with the emission value lit the Avatar and spot lighting were just for directed lighting in particular areas.

This may already be possible and I just may have not seen how to do this It could be I just need to break my ages into discreet areas or find some way to pay for a faster PC.

I suspect it is going to be the latter.
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby Chacal » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:09 am

J'Kla wrote:Now It would be easier if I could get the object emission values to light my avatar or have spot lights that only lit the avatar and were not baking into the age environment.

I have also noticed a massive overhead in exporting, from using spot lights for directed lighting over this generic sun type lighting.



It seems to me you have two different needs:
1- lighting your environment: place some lights for this and bake them, as was said above. Don't export them. They will not light the avatar during the game.
2- lighting you avatar: place some lights for this, don't use them for baking (deactivate them before baking. It helps if you put them all in one layer). Make them sun lights for better performance.
DO export them. They will dynamically light the avatar, and only the avatar, during the game.

So if you have a bright place and you want both the environment and the avatar to be lighted properly at that place, you put two lights at roughly the same place.
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby J'Kla » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:46 pm

Thanks Chacal

For the first time that actually makes sense.

Me thinks time for some experimentation. :)

Particularly about baking lights for the environment that I am not going to export.

Is there some way to add a Sun to an environment and put something in the way so the part of the environment is shaded from that sun.

Consider you have a large open space lit by a Sun that may or may not be moving think Teledahn that casts a shadow in the open but there is a small windowless shed when you enter the shed your avatar is shaded from the sun but lit by a small spot light.

Obviously inside the shed I want no influence from the Sunlight I want the Spotlight responsible for the lighting. How do we stop the sunlight lighting the Avatar inside the shed.

For shed you could read cave cavern hole in the ground.

It may be a tent so the sun would be partial.

The shed may have a window so if the sun was moving the light from the window would move around and iluminate different parts of the shed.
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Re: Age Lighting a conversation

Postby Christian Walther » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:49 am

J'Kla wrote:Obviously inside the shed I want no influence from the Sunlight I want the Spotlight responsible for the lighting. How do we stop the sunlight lighting the Avatar inside the shed.

This can be done with soft volumes. At least it could in POTS. I have no idea how to do it with Korman, but there is documentation.

The shed may have a window so if the sun was moving the light from the window would move around and iluminate different parts of the shed.

The soft volume approach does not do that. It could be done by having the walls cast realtime shadows, or maybe with a projection light.

As an aside, I welcome your intention to light your ages better! So far, I have never spent much time in them because the lack of shading was so disorienting that it took all the fun out of exploring.
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