Barriers to Fan Development of MO:RE

[J'Kla]

If you don't hear from Chogon soon there may be a reason.

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=17571

[Robert The Rebuilder]

That's the detailed information behind Chogon's announcement last month of MO:RE going on hold - but it isn't new information. Since the layoff, Chogon has replied to my inquiry about interested Cyan RAD3 judges, so he's still around.

[Chacal]

On a related topic, thegreydragon.com domain has been parked. I wonder what's happening with Ryan.

[JWPlatt]

This was an interesting thread while it lasted. RTR's OP actually adresses some key points about my Open Source proposal over on the MOUL forum. But as the topic here is about barriers, I will not further that proposal here - at least for now. Besides actually convincing Cyan to go Open Source, I've found the greatest barrier has been among the people right here. Us. I have several times come here to offer up ideas with some general points to see how they would take. I have stopped doing that because they have generally been met with resistance. I suspect that is because you folks have been doing things the same way with the same tools on the same platforms for a long time now. There is a certain cache' to being able to do everything you have done in a pseudo-underground way without official Cyan approval, but getting their backdoor help and a wink. My feeling is that you cling to it like anyone would to their glory days. Change and "not invented here" and "that's not how it is done here" are understandly very difficult to overcome. So what I see as one of the greatest barriers is the inability to come here with an idea and build on it with the attitude of a team willing to find a way it can be done instead of why it cannot until all the possibilities have been exhausted. Or maybe you're just too tired to carry on.

[BAD]

We just want to make ages for Uru Here JW, it's been clearly stated. Your outlook is skewed and your above post is so close to a direct flame, I am wondering if we should give you a warning for it.

Your problem is your not willing to do the work for your ideas. You pontificate here and on the MOUL forums, but rarely have anything substantial to show for your big ideas.

If you want to create an open source Uru, then get to doing it, don't criticize us because we don't all line up behind your banner waving.

[J'Kla]

I am going to go and look to see what you have brought to this forum because I don't want to run off the handle without adequate research.

Ok I have been for a look at your postings and I have to agree with BAD.

I am open to change invented anywhere JW your call for Open Source is admirable but it remains just that a call. I do resent the "Pseudo-underground" comment when this is a publicly available forum with links to other forums and an effort to achieve an open dialogue with Cyan.

Where is this back door that the help is coming from either the site is open or it's not so I take a deep and meaningful resentment at the implication that I or anyone else here is doing anything Pseudo underground or otherwise.

As far as I am concerned this is a place where I can explore Blender, Python and get the results to run in CC I cannot see how this can prevent anything but an understanding of the Uru environment If it does go "Open Source" we are going to need skills in writing ages and for the time being these are the only tools to practice with.

I am not in a position to contribute one way or another to your "Peer to Peer" and "Open Source" contributions.

So please stick your negativity where the Sun is afraid to show it's face I am open to positive comments. I for one have taken on board your call for Open Source and have openly said that it sounds like a good idea. Should it become available I am prepared to follow that call, until it is available either bring something new to the table or walk away.

[BAD]

J'kla made me realize something....

I too agree that Uru open source is a fantastic idea. I think it's as likely as Cyan finding another publisher for Uru Live.

[J'Kla]

We bounce back to the one barrier being Cyan.

Progress without either Cyan compliance with Open Source principles or a reluctant acceptance of fan support by some other means, remains the only route forward short of a massive cash injection from another benefactor and those are a bit thin on the ground (something to do with the credit crunch and certain toxic loans).

We can wish all we like but short of making a mass visit to Spokane and giving the management of Cyan either a serious sum of money or a swift kick up the arse I am at a loss as to how we can progress this.

I am massively in favour of the good kicking idea but I can't afford the air fare and my only method of crossing the pond would be either swimming or in my kayak and both of those are improbable if not impossible.

Our only other hope is the total collapse of Cyan then we could offer to buy them out for a couple of pizzas.

Is there any way the fan community could become a publisher? I know minority groups have come together in the past to publish literature so why not software?

[BAD]

Now there is a somewhat viable idea. I wonder if it would be possible to get Cyan to agree to some kind of buy out. We rally the community to donate money to buying the rights to distribute Uru under a GPL license or something similar to that.

This way we free Uru for fan development, but we don't insult Cyan's IP.

[JWPlatt]

Wow, and you think I'm radical? Well, it's an idea, and I guess that's the kind of thing I'm asking for - progressive ideas. I'm only asking Cyan to open its mind and its source and proposing something which generates revenue for Cyan. An acquisition of any sort is not what I had in mind.

I looked around a little and found a recent public message from the underground. Maybe a better word is 'semi-underground,' but 'the pseudo' prefix sounds so cool. That's a joke. Anyway, the "us" and the "we" in the following quote is just one small part the pseudo-underground, formed by the needs of the fans and the wink from Cyan which continues to make all your ages possible.

Everyone should have the right to the same info. I agree entirely. The information was not given to us by Cyan, it was not a gift, it is not something that most people would find useful; but I agree that it should be available to everyone.

The information in question, is the documentation of Plasma's internal classes; which is currently done privately by a group of 3-5 people. Back in UU, we kept all of this information on a wiki, where people could use it for their own tools, point out errors, and contribute to a repository of knowledge.

We were asked by Cyan in 2006 to not post any information publicly. Since that time, all of our documentation has been done privately, and people who want to write tools often have to figure it out for themselves because we aren't allowed to post the documentation anywhere.

I know that this information would be useful to people who want to improve the PyPRP plugin, who want to write tools, and who want to understand how things work; however, all of our emails to Cyan's legal team have been ignored, and we are still not allowed to post documentation publicly.

As far as doing something, ideas are all I have unless I, or we, propose something which Cyan allows me, or us, to implement. I'm not really at all interested in making ages. If that's all you do here, you are right that the GoW is not for me. I am far more interested in the development of the client and server. But only if the work is relevant and used. I thought software development is part of what the GoW is about. Certainly some members here have written reverse-engineered tools and done extensive mods to Cyan's software (see above quote). I don't think making ages is all the members of the GoW want to do or topics like this one wouldn't exist, though I do notice it encountered an administrative "barrier" when it was shunted to Off Topic due to the stated policy. But I think if any Guild were going to be part of the Open Sourcing of Uru, it would be the GoW.