Barriers to Fan Development of MO:RE

[teedyo]

They haven't really done extensive mods to Cyan's software: they've done extensive reverse-engineering and study in order to extend the use of Cyan's software.

I don't really think a buy-out(or GPL) is much of a tenable solution either. My thoughts are a little more in line with yours JW; except that instead of an SDK, I'd propose a limited-license fork of the Plasma engine. I think that would have to come from the MOUL version as it has an open SDK for physics whereas I don't believe the Havoc SDK is. While it would take some time; I think this would allow for the development of native versions for OS X and Linux as well as some needed bug-fixes. All of this would be of the mind that Cyan would take the reins at some point and incorporate any enhancements that make sense. I've always been a little disappointed that no URU work was accomplished during the slow times since prologue. You know. On the back-burner but at least on a burner.

I certainly have no idea as to how to get Cyan to seriously consider any of the proposals.

[Nadnerb]

I'm missing the 'wink' you keep referring to in all of your posts. Perhaps you should read that post of Dox's that you quoted more carefully. Cyan did not, ever, give anyone, any code. The only action they ever took was to tell some people to stop posting what they had deduced from the game files publicly. Hence, those people continued deducing privately. So sure it may be underground, but it clearly illustrates Cyan's position on the matter of their source. (They'll open it when hell freezes over) All of the development work done in the 'underground' has been directed towards tool development, not towards modification of the client or server, (your stated interest) which can't be done effectively without actual source from Cyan, (which there is none of) except by rewriting the entire thing based on the file formats it reads/network traffic it handles.

Either way, the only real feedback on their 'approval level' is that they have accepted the results of using the tools that were developed without their approval.

[J'Kla]

We may not need to wait for such a cold day. If someone were to put up enough money then Cyan might hand over some of the code. As to how much money and how much code would be a mater for Cyan.

There is a president the plasma code that ran UU was freely handed over by Cyan and the rampant hacking (in the original sense of the term)that came from that did result in a number of bug fixes that appeared in D'mala and were I believe incorporated into MOUL.

My off the cuff comment about publishing was meant as a serious thought exercise. Bare in mind lateral thinking can sometimes give solutions to radical problems.

All of the current publishers out there started somewhere. We may even get ourselves to a position we we could send JW a polite letter saying sorry but the remuneration you are expecting outstrips what we believe you could bring to the project.

Maybe we should be trying to show Cyan that the whole MOUL experience was a result of the original decision to distribute the plasma server as UU and that it might be time to launch UntilMORE either way we need Cyan at this table. I deeply believe we can't progress as long as there is one party not in the discussions.

I am of the opinion that MOUL failed because Cyan and GameTap went into a huddle and left the fans outside. At this time there are the guilds in several fan huddles with some wandering members and Cyan are looking at them scared witless they will not be able to handle the disparate requests.

I believe we need Cyan talking to us letting us know what they want and until they do, we will continue to chatter amongst ourselves endlessly speculating as to what they want.

The one thing that is clear is that the community wants to see some sort of continuation of Uru be that the "Open Source" model championed by JD or the extreme minimalist step I have suggested with a relaunch of UU as it was. I am open to anything that falls between these two solutions even options outside these boundaries.

I have a feeling that the one thing that's not an option is the thing Cyan secretly hope for and that is an industry champion on a white charger. Turner(GameTap) was that white knight and they failed Cyans' expectations.

I believe that Cyan just doesn't believe the community can come up with the goods and until they talk to us they never will.

As an aside JW I don't consider you a radical just a passionate advocate in a one solution mindset. It's good to see a positive response as opposed to your usual rampant negativity we see when others don't join you on your bandwagon. You do rely need to learn that while "Open Source" is a way forward it is not the only way and no matter how long you bang at that door. The lock is on Cyans' side of the door, and until they open a door any door we are all trapped outside the fortress With them listening for the industry bat phone to ring ignoring all our knocking.

[JWPlatt]

I'm missing the 'wink' you keep referring to in all of your posts.

I first used the word in a thread I started on UO. In fact, I use both 'wink' and ' underground' in my third post of that thread. I really don't think underground is an insult if you read the context in which I use it there and understand the meaning.

http://www.uruobsession.com/forum/index ... 1ebacceb09

I also started the same discussion on the DRC forum, but the UO discussion was more successful.

http://forums.drcsite.org/viewtopic.php?t=2702

I entitled the thread "Cyan Is Conflicted About User Created Content" Some of you probably remember it. It got Tom Sowa's attention, who talked to me via email and on the phone before publishing his article at Spokesman Review which revealed details about Turner's rights to MOUL for the first time. Chogon publicly wrote that article got Cyan motivated to pursue things with Turner about reacquiring the rights to MOUL and launching the Roadmap to MORE. So yes, I think our ideas and words can have an affect. That is part of what I bring to the table. While I have little interest in building ages myself, I knew the issue of UCC itself was an extremely important step. This Guild will benefit from Cyan's legitimization of your work. And the ideas about Open Sourcing, if we can have it make enough sense and get enough positive and progressive contributions to discussions, may get Cyan's attention and consideration. Robert The Rebuilder started a good thread here. I'd like to see these discussions continue without the barriers from the community itself.

[J'Kla]

Robert has already posted to Chogon and we are yet to hear any response. I agree it's a sound discussion topic provided we don't let it become negative. We could do with Cyan input and if that means we have to find a new location to move the discussion then so be it.

I know Cyan avoid locations where they can stumble on fan ideas this is more to avoid accusations of plagiarism than any other reason. This site has to fall under that net.

The MO:UL forum is infested with "Cyan only purists" that make it difficult to discuss anything that smells of an alternative to pure Cyan. GoMA is an open option as they have any fan ideas behind digital walls. I know this because I have a story in work behind just such a wall.

I am also aware that there are some people at GoMA that would like to have certain ground rules clarified. I do know we need some sort of round table discussion and we need someone from Cyan sat at that table. We can't continue as things are. I include Cyan in that we.

Various guilds have reported increased activity since the MORE on hold announcement but I would put this down to a desperate hunt for a way forward.

Available actions
Spokesman approach (I believe Robert represents this approach)
Mass e-mail (probably a last resort)
Illegal shard release (not a good idea if we want to retain community good will)
Internal random discussion (what's been going on with out Cyan)
Open flame warfare (I think we have managed to avoid this)

I propose we encourage Robert to persist with Chogon and if that fails there are other e-mail addresses to try before we resort to any other methods.

[Aloys]

Asking for Cyan to Open source the game (or even just part of it) is just wishfull thinking in my opinion. They won't even release binaries for the Plasma toolset, then how would OS'ing anything be even remotely possible? (especially given their current situation). They can't be blamed for that though, it's their game.
I really wish Cyan the best for the future (and even for the present), but although they're technically still around at this point we're essentially on our own.

[BAD]

JW,

My problem with you is you start, or continue discussions like these, then do nothing to support the idea. You are the big idea man, but you don't follow through with any action. You always seem to be putting people down trying to bully them into doing the work for you. That is trollish behavior, and I'll warn you right now, I, nor the staff here will put up with it if you escalate it. Right now, this is calming down and I am not upset, so don't take this as a "get out" kind of post.

If you think Uru open source is a good idea, write up a proposal and send it to Cyan's legal. I doubt they are sitting around combing the tonnes of forums related to Uru looking for ideas. I don't even think they look on their own forums most of the time.

Heck! I (and many others) would be dancing in our living rooms if Cyan decided to open source Uru. It's a fantastic idea some have put forth in the past, and you are standing behind now.

I think you misunderstood my meaning about the community buying rights idea. What your putting forth will essentially be GIVING away rights to Uru to the fans. Once you open source something, you give people unlimited access and use of your product. There is essentially no way to keep people from taking your code, repackage it, and sell it.

What J'kla was proposing is that the community buys the right to DEVELOP Uru. This would essentially work in that those who contribute money will be allowed access to the code, and ONLY they who contribute. They would have rights to see, modify, and bug fix the code, but no right to distribute. So in my opinion, that would be more likely something Cyan would agree to, then to just give away their code. More details would have to be worked out, but that's the basics.

I would suggest taking a good look at how Steam is being handled.

[Lontahv]

Don't feed the trolls.

Well... I can't help my self. I just want to say one thing about JW's way of poking Cyan.

It seems like this poking is not helping because the more JW pushes and prods Cyan (and puts itching-powder down the backs of their shirts) they push back the same amount. We can't force them to do anything, we can't decide anything for them. IMO we should handle this discussion topic just like a game, quiz, opinionated ideas, sharing dreams for Uru. JW provoked a threat out of Chogon on UO... was that his goal? Can't we just have a little fun and be able to do what we want as long as it's not official. Trying to get fan ages to be "official" may be the undoing of all we've built over the years.

This is not to say we have to hide what's not official. If Cyan as a company doesn't want hacking discussion on their forums, fine. Would YOU want hacking discussions on your forums, would Apple or Microsoft? Cyan as a company is different from the Cyantists. Even though fan-ages are not official we have Chogon judging for this RAD. I can live with UCC being technically illegal. I have a harder time living with Cyan saying "PyPRP, ULM, libPlasma, if you run those programs or use those libraries you are breaking the law!".

So let's try to keep this nice and remain in the cool shade of the gray area.

[JWPlatt]

I seem to have done something to support UCC fairly effectively.

What your putting forth will essentially be GIVING away rights to Uru to the fans.

That is actually not the case. I don't expect you to keep track of the proposal I have laid out. But if you critique it, I do expect some understanding. I've made it clear that I want to do it in a way which protects Cyan control and and generates Cyan revenues. I will look at what J'kla has to say with the same demand upon myself. I'd also like to see what else RTR has posted because on the surface it looks just like what I was looking at.

I would suggest taking a good look at how Steam is being handled.

I brought up steam myself a long while ago. A lot of people did. Though forum discussion isn't great for researching a proposal, that idea also had vocal critics and found even less acceptance, though of course it found some and it doesn't mean it's not worthy (just like OS).

I'm having a hard time not thinking it's the status quo being protected here at the GoW. That's what I wrote about earlier. And wow, Lontahv's post just came up in the preview. MORE was taking steps to make it legal.

[BAD]

JW,

How can I argue with your stunning intellect. Yes, we here at the GOW wish for nothing but to protect and promote the status quo. Whatever the heck that means.