A serious proposal to Cyan. Can WE get MORE up and running?

[Lontahv]

Here's my take on the "is Plasma better than a modern engine question".

Plasma is great for Cyan because it's theirs. Basically, if they need a new feature for their content they can write it in no problem. Plasma is pretty good by itself but the fact that it's Cyan's makes it invaluable to them.

This is why I always go for the option of writing code myself rather than using some other person's engine/program/whatea (there are exceptions to this rule but when I need a program for a very specific purpose I don't look around online for days trying to find someone selling licenses to such a program ).

Why would you agree to a TOS for an engine that said you had to give a certain percent of profit to the makers or you could only use the SDK? I find programming your way out of problems is less trouble in the long run than dealing with legal stuff.

I feel it's like SEGA licensing the old Galaga engine (not that they are trying to do this). WHY? It's the content that matters. Pretty much the engine is the content with Galaga at least.

[JWPlatt]

Yep, Plasma is all their's. That's great. They get all the benefits you say. But it doesn't do anything to answer my questions which are directed at the idea they could do well to license it as an SDK. When I ask about whether Plasma has anything over new technologies, I'm exploring the possibility that Cyan will benefit if they make their technology avaiable because there is no competitive advantage - only a cost savings because, as you say, they own it and don't have to buy or rely on something else. That might be about it.

What does that have to do with this thread? A serious MOUL project might include the use of Cyan SDKs to go along with a plugin and UCC.

Chogon - I have immediate need to find and select a good graphics engine for use in a commercial entertainment product undergoing a significant upgrade over the next year. It is not a competitor and is not even close to your market. Call me.

[J'Kla]

Qa: What does Plasma have over any really good contemporary engine which is done better with new technologies?

Qb: What competitive edge does Cyan lose by making Plasma available if there are better things anyway?

Qc: Why shouldn't Cyan release Plasma as an SDK?

Qd: Why should they?

Qe: Wouldn't selling a Plasma SDK simultaneously generate revenue and protect their source and rights to the technology while offering development, testing and support services for it, thereby getting greater leverage out of their Headspin investment?

Qa I don't know show me one that will take my current blender builds and give me an Avatar to work with that is as familiar to me as the Uru one (And no Guns)

Qb I don't know that's one only Cyan can answer.

Qc Seems strange they have a product ready to use and are not prepared to put it to the market?

Qd It's a licence to say give me money and if you can't make anything with it it's your fault!

Qe I think we covered that in Qc and Qd. I totally agree but that's all Cyan if they don't want our money let's see what we can do with Alcugs.

I tried that writing a direct e-mail to the CEO Tony and got a No back. Chogon to be fair may not be the monkey but he sure as hell aint the organ grinder.

Last time I wrote was just before D'mala so it may be worth trying again. Let us know if you get a response. In the meantime I am looking at what we do with Alcugs and if it works for our ages maybe it's the way forward.

[J'Kla]

############## DISCUSSION DOCUMENT #################

If this needs moving elsewhere get on with it just post a link.

I want to hold a discussion on Copyright, Patent and Monopoly protection with a view to Alcugs, The Plasma Engine, Shards, Authentication Server and Data server.

That is doing a build using only those files currently available in the CC disc (No Cyan stuff that we would not have clear rights to use ) That is the client uses the files the user purchased when they bought the CC disc plus stuff we write ourselves OK we don't get the MO:UL stuff but a lot of that was in the TpotS part of CC. It is explicit it does not run if you don't have a valid disc and we entertain all licence fee approaches from Cyan. Hell they may want to licence our stuff

So we would loose access to:

Eder Tsogal,
Eder Delin,
Mintaka,
The Pod ages,
Jalak Dador
K'veer but only the prison portion,
Kirel (this would only be the earlier version).

There are additional small things such as the Memorial in the city, and the balcony in Ahnonay and the light meter on the dockside.
We would loose the Calendar posts
We would loose some relto goodies

Birds
Plants
Seat
Canen music player would only with the origonal music (I am sure we could add some new music.
Fireplace
The rotaytary object from the garden ages

If anyone can think of more PM Me lets try and make this a definitive list.

What could we put in their place.

Serene could already replace either of the Eder Gardens.
Enobmort has a mapping component of at least an equal challenge to Mintaka. (That is a biased opinion by the way )

There's Ahra Phats I think that's more than equal to the Pods.
We have at least four ages that could more than cover what we loose in the guilds.
The Beach at Zepher Cove makes up for the Pub (A beach party has to be better than any stuffy pub)
Andy Nexus is an adequate replacement for the Myst Library
And we have more room to grow. I always felt Jalak fell flat when it had no feedback scoring system and it didn't do a full 25 different heights.

There's still other age builders out there to approach like MercAngel with his dynamic maze age.

Of note: there is also the possibility of gaining the Gahreesen Wall. Who knows, maybe we can work out the bugs

Yes I concede it's not MO:RE but if Cyan made the approach would we stop them using the ages in MO:RE. O.K. the deal might be that for any age they use in MO:RE they let us use one of theirs (Unlikely) and they sure as hell they could add a level of polish we would struggle to achieve. (We don't have the tools and hardware).

The policy would have to be hands off Cyan MO:UL ages in fact hands off anything from the cannon that's got to be the rules we can probably get away with. We might be legal Bug fixes.

############ Note This is a head above the parapet up to be shot at NOTE I expect debate not a flame war ###############

Cyan would probably want us to sit on our hands but from our end it's not in our interests. We are not in this for fiscal gain (I am not anyway) I'm in this to further an art form and if that means we fork and recognise our heritage then that may be the way. Who knows Cyan may achieve a new market selling upgraded versions of CC that includes our missing list.

[edit]Thanks to Greendragoon for some things missed from the list[/edit]

[DataPhreak]

I would like to bring refference to WoW. There are many free servers out there that Emulate what the wow servers do. Note that these emulated servers do not offer any proprietary wow data, and therefore are not illegal. Likelyhood is, Alcugs does the same thing. I highly doubt that every time you connect to the server, you have to download all the maps, music, textures, et al. These are large items that probably come with the install, which is why you have to have your install of whichever version to play. Therefore, running alcugs is not illegal. (This is assumption. You might want to get with the builders of alcugs as I do not know the exact specifics in the software.)

That being the case, the only thing that could possibly make it illegal is people who have never purchased the game downloading it from a torrent or what not and connecting to the server. In all honesty, I don't see that doing anything but building the fan base in the case of Cyan actually making good on MO:RE, because honestly, when it does come out, everyone's probably going to shut down the server and go to MO:RE anyway.

[Tweek]

Yeah but those servers have been getting shut down by Blizzard and their legal team.

[J'Kla]

Blizzard have got big money like millions to pay lawyers I am not saying only the rich can afford protection but that the rich can afford lawyers to enforce protectionist measures. I know Blizzard were looking to close some illegal servers because they were distributing virus infected software.

We know there are underground shards out there and if Cyan were to choose to go after them they would undoubtedly get the support from the community.

I do understand where these guys are coming from though. There was a feeling that Cyan reneged on a promise when they shut down the authentication server for the UntilUru Shards this cut off without any hope a big chunk of Europe that could not and were not going to get GameTap and anybody still on dialup. Thrown out into the cold some decided to rebel and stay.

Think on those underground shards are still meeting on line in a hood with the warm glow of smug satisfaction while we bicker about Cyan silence. Go Figure!

[Chacal]

We know there are underground shards out there and if Cyan were to choose to go after them they would undoubtedly get the support from the community.

"they" being Cyan or the shards?

[J'Kla]

Don't be pedantic Chacal if I was implying anything but Cyan I would be running from a lynch mob. Yes there would be some support for the underground shards but anyone openly supporting them would be jeopardising there chances of playing MO:RE when it did come around.

That's why any talk about a shard for fan development work is tactfully avoiding any talk about an Underground UU shard current speculation and it is just that is centred around a legal approach to the Alcugs server.

It does look like Cyan are exercising plausible deny ability with respect to the underground shards so if they (The Underground) keep their heads down and don't make waves Cyan can say to any prospective backer "There are no underground shards we can point to" and not be lying. If however they make themselves visible in any way Cyan have to be obliged to do something.

[Chacal]

anyone openly supporting them would be jeopardising there chances of playing MO:RE when it did come around.

That is a little far-fetched in my opinion.

It does look like Cyan are exercising plausible deny ability with respect to the underground shards so if they (The Underground) keep their heads down and don't make waves Cyan can say to any prospective backer "There are no underground shards we can point to" and not be lying. If however they make themselves visible in any way Cyan have to be obliged to do something.

That makes more sense.

Sadly, however, you are right in saying that a part of the community would gladly and blindly pounce on the owners of a shard if they found them out. Those people have possibly forgotten (but most probably weren't even around then) that it is the combined efforts of shard owners and hackers that have made MOUL possible. It is the same efforts by the same people (to which Age writers have been added) that are keeping Uru alive right now.