Atlantis Shard & Source Code

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Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Nev'yn » Fri May 03, 2013 9:36 am

Be aware, I'm not trying to "stir the pot" the pot concerning this. I just have a simple question, more from an "open source" perspective.

So, in addition to protecting the rights of developer of a new feature or code improvement...
...I'm assuming in also allows to other to find improvements to their own work, and also build of those improvements?

Sorry for the pesky question!
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Tsar Hoikas » Fri May 03, 2013 12:24 pm

You have pretty well summed up what I consider the gist of the GPL license (this is the license used by CWE). The GPL takes a strong armed approach to freedom in that it requires everyone to share their code. There are others who might try to add more things to your definition that may contain the word "nonfree," but that's not a subject I want to touch with a ten foot pole ;). Some folks get pretty sanctimonious about open source licenses (see: BSD).
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Deledrius » Fri May 03, 2013 12:31 pm

The GPL is meant to ensure that code which is made Free to access & use must always remain Free to access & use. Generally speaking, if you release something made from code you acquired under a GPL license, you must also release any changes you make to it; these are the terms under which you are given license to use it in the first place. If you cannot or do not wish to follow those terms, you would be in violation of the license and may not use the code.

That last bit is what makes GPL code thorny in places of draconian copyright, such as the Apple AppStore or Nintendo consoles, as you end up requiring additional restrictions not allowed by the GPL's freedom-protections, or mixing GPL code with code that cannot be legally released: a legal no-win situation.

Some open source licenses give the licensee a lot more freedom, at the expense of not guaranteeing as much freedom. The GPL is a very heavy double-edged sword that uses Copyright against itself in an idealistic attempt to undermine its worst aspects. Whether this is truly ideal is a philosophical debate which has been going on for many decades.
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby GPNMilano » Fri May 03, 2013 10:01 pm

Deledrius wrote:Generally speaking, if you release something made from code you acquired under a GPL license, you must also release any changes you make to it; these are the terms under which you are given license to use it in the first place. If you cannot or do not wish to follow those terms, you would be in violation of the license and may not use the code.


Wait. So if we make an age with the plugin, we don't have to release the source for the age, even though it was made by the plugin do we?
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Deledrius » Fri May 03, 2013 11:15 pm

Strictly speaking I was discussing GPL code. Things you create using a GPL-based tool aren't affected by the tool's code license. However, if you use a GPL'd Python script in your Age that's a slightly different story.

This seems like an obvious distinction to me, so thanks for asking about clarification. Think of it this way: if you use a plugin which is GPL-licensed, the Ages you make with the plugin are not modifying the plugin's code in any way. Therefore you are under no obligation to release changes to the plugin that you did not make. ;)

I hope that makes sense. I should be asleep...

Wikipedia has a decent summary of the GPL terms.
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Calena » Sat May 04, 2013 6:17 am

Branan's post from way back in September 2011 on the OU forums addresses this from a content creator's POV. My take-away from reading and studying this is that unless we're prepared to release the original Max/Blender file and give away all rights to our work, do not use any type of Cyan asset, including textures and/or models:

Branan wrote:If the Max files are GPL'd, that would require anyone who modifiers a Cyan age and distributes the PRP to also distribute the Max file. Under CC, all they'd be required to do is license the resulting PRP under CC. Having Max files for every age would make it much saner* for shard owners to make modifications to the PRP format in their CWE branches, yet still integrate changes they might see on a different shard. Additionally, having a large pool of Max/Blender files available for new artists to look at can only be a good thing (and you'll see why the GPL helps with this further down).

GPL also would cause any age that borrows an asset from a Cyan age to be licensed under GPL, but CC (or at least the share-alike versions, which I'm going to assume are what's being considered) is similarly viral - all that changes is that the Max/Blender files have to be released in addition to the PRPs, which I personally think is a fine idea.

Under either GPL or CC, anybody who's age borrows a Cyan asset would have to allow modifications to that age. The only thing that changes between the two options is whether they have to distribute the Max/Blender "source" file. From what I've seen at the GoW, there are plenty of artists who aren't going to be stopped by not having the source files: they're going to go ahead and modify what they want to modify. Since both CC and GPL allow that modification, I don't see why we shouldn't make that easy (and give the other benefits stated above), and just go with the GPL.

If anybody wants their age to be closed-source, without any legal way for somebody else to mess around with it, the answer in either the case of CC or GPL is to simply not use any Cyan assets.


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In reading the various forums, I'm seeing that shard owners and unskilled builders are voicing their preference that everything be freely available to everyone. I agree that it would make their lives much easier. Mine, not so much. I'm not that nice :evil:
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Deledrius » Sat May 04, 2013 9:19 am

Calena wrote:Branan's post from way back in September 2011 on the OU forums addresses this from a content creator's POV. My take-away from reading and studying this is that unless we're prepared to release the original Max/Blender file and give away all rights to our work, do not use any type of Cyan asset, including textures and/or models:

Link to Original Thread

In reading the various forums, I'm seeing that shard owners and unskilled builders are voicing their preference that everything be freely available to everyone. I agree that it would make their lives much easier. Mine, not so much. I'm not that nice :evil:


Calena, this doesn't apply in any way. Branan's post was a hypothetical, as Cyan has not yet officially licensed their assets to the public. It certainly doesn't apply to the discussion in this thread regarding Plasma or any plugins used to create content. Also, you do not "give away all rights to your work" under the GPL, or any other license. Only by granting your work into the public domain explicitly is that even remotely similar (and even then it's not completely recognized the world over). If you license your work under the GPL you retain all ownership rights to it, but you have granted others the right to use your work under those terms, and likewise if you use someone else's work licensed under the GPL you may use their portions providing you abide by the terms they have granted them to you.

This is easily demonstrated by the necessity of contacting all authors who have contributed to the codebase and asking permission to re-license their collective contributions when the Plasma license was fixed.

At any rate, please be very careful when recommending a course of action to others that doesn't take into account the actual reality of the license. Personally I think the GPL is not a very good license for this kind of content, but that hasn't happened, and even if it did, it wouldn't work quite the way you predict.
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Calena » Sat May 04, 2013 6:05 pm

Deledrius wrote:This is easily demonstrated by the necessity of contacting all authors who have contributed to the codebase and asking permission to re-license their collective contributions when the Plasma license was fixed.


That's good to know. Thanks for taking the time to respond and I apologize if I crossed any lines that weren't supposed to be crossed. In spite of the fact that I'm usually pretty generous in giving away my work See Proof, there are still some things that I choose to hold on to. I'd like to know that the choice is in my hands.

GPNMilano brought up a very good point though. I guess we builders should speak up more when we have a question. We're usually off in our own corners building something and ignoring the administrative end of this whole thing.
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Re: Atlantis Shard & Source Code

Postby Deledrius » Sat May 04, 2013 6:29 pm

It's no problem, I just get concerned when I see statements which could easily turn into an avalanche of misinformation. It's happened before in the Uru community. ;)

There are plenty of legitimate concerns with the GPL deserving of discussion, but fortunately the ones you and GPNMilano raised are nothing to worry about.
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