Seeking Clarification - Various Uru Engines and Blender/Max

[DreamBliss]

OK I thought this merited its own thread. I don't recall finding anything about this around the site, but I confess I didn't look really hard, so my apologies if this has already been covered somewhere. However if this information has not already been clearly and comprehensiveness covered it should be. So here goes...

So we have, at last count, almost half a dozen versions of Uru. They are as follows:

Uru and its expansions: Uru Path of the Shell (PoTS) and Uru To D'ni
Myst Uru Complete Chronicles (Uru CC. Why not MUCC?)
Uru - Ages Beyond Myst (Uru ABM)
Myst Online Uru Live (MOUL)
Myst Online Uru Live Again (MOULa)

As I currently understand it, the first 3 use a different engine, and the last two use the Plasma engine. Since this thread ultimately concerns the creation, testing and playing of ages, we also need a list of known exporters:

3ds Max 7-8 (MOULa Plugins 871)
3ds Max 2010 (CWE 902d)
3ds Max 2012 (CWE 912a)
Blender (Not of importance to me, but should be filled out for others)

Now here is where confusion sets in, and I will attempt to become less confused, and help to create the material needed for a WIKI article, by asking some questions.

What is the official name for the engine(s) used by Uru up until MOUL? Is CWE the same as Plasma, or are these two different engines? Is Plasma indeed the official engine as of MOUL?

What plugins work with what engines? It seems obvious that the MOUL plugins should work with MOUL. But due to some things folks have said around here, I am confused. Is it that Max works only with the older engines of Uru, or its newest, or both?

OK, moving to the next step. Let's say I finally have it straight about what versions of Max work with what versions of Uru. Let's say that the Max 7-8 plugin will allow me to create ages for MOUL, and I have managed to get everything set up and ready (which I have.) So I have Max 8, following Dusty's old tutorials (very comprehensive BTW) or The Magician's (also very good, plus they are video tuts, not text.) I make my very first age, dot all the i's cross all the t's, ready to test it out. To my knowledge these are my options:

I can sign up for an account with Destiny, submit my age file, wait up to a day for it to be on their server, and now I can install, explore, play and test my ages.

I can create my own "Sandbox Shard." I need either a separate computer running Linux, Unix, MaxOS, etc. or a Virtual OS running Linux (probably the easiest.) Then I have a long, outdated and complicated tutorial to follow. In order to do all this I must be very technically proficient in Linux (or whatever sever OS I'm running) and Windows. Once I have everything set up properly, I can install, explore, play and test my ages.

OK, once more, this is where confusion sets in... What is required for me to install, explore, play and test custom ages using Destiny? What is required for me to install, explore, play and test custom ages on my own shard? Do I need an offline version of Uru to play my own ages? Do I need an offline version of Uru to play other's ages? It is mentioned that one can look at their level using Drizzle. How do you use Drizzle to install, explore, play and test your own ages? How do you use it to explore, install, play and test the ages others have made?

So let's say we get past this step. I know how to install, explore, play and test both my own ages and those that others have made. Now for, you guess it, more questions...

For this example let's say I want to fly around. I have been told the Offline-KI is the tool to use. I have also read that I can somehow use it to install, explore, play and test custom ages. But I have also been told that the Offline-Ki is unnecessary, only needed in order to have the Ki in the offline game. What is the truth about the Offline-Ki?

If I want to fly around, remove barriers, mess around with stuff, both custom and default, what is my best approach? I have been told the Deep Island shard is made for that. Is this true? How do I customize my ages, the ages of others, and the ages of Uru to install (where needed), explore, play and test then on the Deep Island Shard, assuming that is indeed the place for this?

Phew... I think that is it for now. But I am almost certain I will have more questions later. Need a break though. It might be a good idea to post the answers to these questions in some easy-to-read format in a sticky thread or WIKI page. Just a thought. If we can make the process installing, exploring, playing and testing ages, as well as modding the game, as clear and easy as possible we will draw in more people to the community. Might even end up with a programmer or two who will build us a program that can start a shard on any computer with a few easy settings and the click of a button. Maybe I'll even get lucky and get someone to make a Wings 3D age plugin. But as complicated, convoluted and complex as things are now, there is very little chance of this happening.

But we'll get there! Oh and I will be starting a new video tutorial series covering age creation, from setup to server, very soon, modeling in Wings 3D (hopefully) and using Max 8 as the age packager. But I may have to stick with Max for the whole process. Not sure yet. But I will be sure within a month depending on how things flow. No promises or commitments.

Haven't decided on using Linux as a Virtual OS and throwing that in to the tutorial, the whole shard creation process, or just sticking with the Destiny Shard. Signed up about an hour ago. When my account is ready I will build an age in Max 8, hand them the .age file, and see how the process goes. Maybe I'll end up with the Destiny workflow for now and later my own shard.

OK, I need to sleep. Tomorrow I build my new computer! Send me a lot of positive energy for that, my first age creation, and any video tutorials I do! Much appreciated! Oh and feel free to dissect/edit this thread as needed to go to some sort of sticky or WIKI page. Anything for the cause!

[tachzusamm]

Uru and its expansions: Uru Path of the Shell (PoTS) and Uru To D'ni
Myst Uru Complete Chronicles (Uru CC. Why not MUCC?)
Uru - Ages Beyond Myst (Uru ABM)
Myst Online Uru Live (MOUL)
Myst Online Uru Live Again (MOULa)

As I currently understand it, the first 3 use a different engine, and the last two use the Plasma engine.

No. Each of them uses an engine called Plasma. However, MOUL + MOULa uses a newer version, because MOUL came out later.
But the physics engines differ. URU uses Havok, MOUL uses PhysX.

So many questions in one post...
That scared me, so I'll answer only one for now.

[Lyrositor]

Plasma is the name of the engine used in all versions of Uru, but there have been tweaks to it over the year, most notably when MO:UL was created. CWE (CyanWorlds.com Engine) is the name of the open-source, stripped-down version of Plasma which was released by Cyan. MO:ULa is more-or-less running CWE right now - Cyan accepts fixes, then applies their own custom things (like CCR functionality).

If you set up your own shard, you'll also need to compile an Internal client for your shard (which means giving it a matching build ID and server.ini); if you use Destiny, I believe they already distribute an Internal client which you can use to test your Ages.

Drizzle is useful only for old/offline Uru - not for MO:UL. Similarly, the Offline-KI can be used only for old/offline Uru. To fly in MO:UL with an Internal client, press Shift+P (use H and U to go down and up). For other settings, you'll need to manipulate the SDL of Ages, which can be done on the fly with an Internal client by issuing a few commands.

Useful reading material:

• Plasma
• Development:CyanWorlds.com Engine
• CWE:Getting Started
• DIRTSAND
• DIRTSAND:Getting Started

These are all pretty up-to-date, to the best of my knowledge.

[Christian Walther]

Good questions! I'll answer as many as I can fit into this lunch break, for the rest you’ll have to wait for someone else or until I have time on Sunday.

What is the official name for the engine(s) used by Uru up until MOUL? Is CWE the same as Plasma, or are these two different engines? Is Plasma indeed the official engine as of MOUL?

(Partly redundant with tach’s answer, as I wrote it before I saw his) Much of what you’re asking is explained in the Plasma wiki article. The engines of all of these games, and a few more, are Plasma, just different versions of it. The main difference of interest to today’s age builders is between the Path of the Shell == Complete Chronicles version (offline game, but can with small modifications also play online, on Alcugs shards like Deep Island; closed source; uses Havok physics; uses a PRP format produced e.g. by PyPRP 1.x) and the MOUL version (online only, used by MOULa and all Dirtsand/MOSS shards; open source; uses PhysX physics; uses a PRP format produced e.g. by Cyan’s Max plugin). Confusingly, both of these figure under Plasma 2.0.

When Cyan open-sourced the MOUL version of Plasma, they did it under the name CyanWorlds.com Engine (CWE). I believe the reasoning was to distinguish it from Plasma 2.1 and 3.0, which are still closed-source. Many developers who have been familiar with it for a long time still habitually call it Plasma rather than CWE though.

What plugins work with what engines? It seems obvious that the MOUL plugins should work with MOUL. But due to some things folks have said around here, I am confused. Is it that Max works only with the older engines of Uru, or its newest, or both?

The Max plugin released by Cyan (and since updated by fan developers to work on newer Max versions) only works with the MOUL engine. (Obviously, there must at some point have been a version of it that produced content for the CC engine, but that one hasn’t been released.) PyPRP 1.x (Blender plugin) only works with the CC engine. There has been work on Blender plugins that work with the MOUL engine (e.g. PyPRP 2.0), but none is complete enough to produce fully interactive ages.

Your list

3ds Max 7-8 (MOULa Plugins 871)
3ds Max 2010 (CWE 902d)
3ds Max 2012 (CWE 912a)

is misleading, it should rather be a matrix (incomplete and off the top of my head, thus possibly incorrect):

Code: Select all

               3ds Max 7-8  3ds Max 2010  3ds Max 2012
MOUla Plugins 871   *
CWE 902d            *           *             *
CWE 912a            *           *             *

(Edit: argh, and redundant with Lyrositor’s post too, but I’m not going to rewrite it now )

[diafero]

Wow, many questions I'll surely miss some, so please ask again if something is missing...

First of all, please read through the Uru wiki article. It should at least slightly lift the confusion about the differences between the existing Uru versions, and give you an overview of what exists.

What plugins work with what engines? It seems obvious that the MOUL plugins should work with MOUL. But due to some things folks have said around here, I am confused. Is it that Max works only with the older engines of Uru, or its newest, or both?

PyPRP 1.x works with the old Uru:CC. PyPRP 2.x is still in very early development (and hence not used by any age builder, as far as I know) and supports all versions of the engine. The 3ds Max plugin works with the new MO:UL only. However, there is a tool called Drizzle which can convert MO:UL-ages to Uru:CC-ages, so many 3ds Max age builders actually work with the combination of offline Uru:CC and 3ds Max. An alternative to this model is to work directly with MO:UL, in which case you need a MO:UL Shard, either one you set up yourself or a Shard like Destiny permitting the use of local files (which many Shards forbid). There is no offline MO:UL.

OK, once more, this is where confusion sets in... What is required for me to install, explore, play and test custom ages using Destiny? What is required for me to install, explore, play and test custom ages on my own shard? Do I need an offline version of Uru to play my own ages? Do I need an offline version of Uru to play other's ages? It is mentioned that one can look at their level using Drizzle. How do you use Drizzle to install, explore, play and test your own ages? How do you use it to explore, install, play and test the ages others have made?

So let's say we get past this step. I know how to install, explore, play and test both my own ages and those that others have made. Now for, you guess it, more questions...

For this example let's say I want to fly around. I have been told the Offline-KI is the tool to use. I have also read that I can somehow use it to install, explore, play and test custom ages. But I have also been told that the Offline-Ki is unnecessary, only needed in order to have the Ki in the offline game. What is the truth about the Offline-Ki?

If I want to fly around, remove barriers, mess around with stuff, both custom and default, what is my best approach? I have been told the Deep Island shard is made for that. Is this true? How do I customize my ages, the ages of others, and the ages of Uru to install (where needed), explore, play and test then on the Deep Island Shard, assuming that is indeed the place for this?

If you use online MO:UL to test your ages, then you do not need anything but a custom, internal build of CWE (which, it seems, you already got working). That already contains everything you need to test ages, including a flymode.

If you use offline Uru:CC, you need the Offline KI. Original Uru:CC did not have a proper KI interface, nor did it support linking to fan-created ages (which is the Uru speak for loading fan-created ages, i.e. actually going there). The Offline KI does not only add a full KI, it also patches some of the existing ages to present the installed fan-ages, so you can link there with a click. it also contains a lot of useful KI commands (special chat messages which you can enter to trigger some reaction by the game itself) that help in creating ages, and it contains a flymode. See the documentation for a more exhaustive list of what it can do.
The tool of your choice to install the Offline KI into your Uru:CC installation is UAM, which is a part of Drizzle. You just need to tell it where your Uru:CC installation is located, and it will put the right files into the right places. The UAM also provides a list of all publicly available fan-ages, which you can install with a single click - and as the Offline KI patches the game appropriately (think of it as an expansion pack), the game will find these ages and offer you the possibility to go there.
The Offline KI (despite its name) also makes Uru:CC fit for playing together, online, i.e. to form a Shard using the Alcugs server software. Hence most (all?) Uru:CC Shards require the Offline KI to function, and typically, they will install it automatically when you log in - in general, unless the Shard admin explicitly says so (like in the case of Destiny), you should not mess with the files of a Shard client installation to avoid stability issues. However, on Deep Island, the functionality of the Offline KI is restricted, so commands that can have an effect on other players, and development commands, are available to administrators only. Hence you cannot use flymode on Deep Island. Other Shards admins may handle this differently. If you want to use online Uru:CC for testing and still fly around (for example to test multiplayer aspects of your age), you will have to create your own Shard or find an Uru:CC Shard which allows you to use local files - the same pattern as with MO:UL.

Now, I hope that clears things up a bit, let us know if you have more questions

[Calena]

The 3ds Max plugin works with the new MO:UL only. However, there is a tool called Drizzle which can convert MO:UL-ages to Uru:CC-ages, so many 3ds Max age builders actually work with the combination of offline Uru:CC and 3ds Max. An alternative to this model is to work directly with MO:UL, in which case you need a MO:UL Shard, either one you set up yourself or a Shard like Destiny permitting the use of local files (which many Shards forbid). There is no offline MO:UL.

This is the workflow I use and also what all the other age builders that I know that work in 3dsMax use. We build in Max, export with Cyan's plugin, open Drizzle to convert the files created by the plugin for play in offline URU:CC, then link to the age in our offline installations.

This method of building is very fast and simple. My only other choice would be limited to building my own sandbox shard, since I wouldn't choose to be reliant on an external server to access my work. I've put over 1000 hours so far into my biggest age-building project and I have that thing backed up on 4 different computers, a usb, an external hard drive and RW-DVD. If every shard on the internet goes down, I still have and can access my work.

Speaking of clarification, I'm not exactly certain what needs done to convert these ages back to MOUL format. My understanding is that the difference is in the physics engines and the colliders may need re-built. Of all the things it takes to build an age, colliders are about the easiest to build and to change. Is there a detailed wiki page on what exactly needs changed? I haven't seen anything on this.

[Deledrius]

Speaking of clarification, I'm not exactly certain what needs done to convert these ages back to MOUL format. My understanding is that the difference is in the physics engines and the colliders may need re-built. Of all the things it takes to build an age, colliders are about the easiest to build and to change. Is there a detailed wiki page on what exactly needs changed? I haven't seen anything on this.

The main problem with converted colliders is that in MOULa they're single-sided, so many fan Ages built originally for CC had the normals set the wrong direction (since it didn't matter previously). Those faces will need to be flipped. AFAIK that's the only problem we've run into converting fan Ages for Gehn.

Of course, if you use custom scripts for journals and such, those will need to be made to work with the engine proper (take a look at Fehnir's House for an example). I've made changes to the moul-scripts that remove a lot of the hard-coded nonsense and make it easier for us to flexibly add new Ages using the standard PythonFileMods instead of the custom ones used by CC's KI-mods. For journals, it becomes as easy as making the .loc files in whatever languages for which you have translations, and letting the PFM do the rest.

[Christopher]

My only other choice would be limited to building my own sandbox shard, since I wouldn't choose to be reliant on an external server to access my work.

We set up the destiny, so you don't need to build your own shard. You also wouldn't be reliant on our server, cause you would still have your files and everything else on your local hard drive. We are also running a restarter script every hour. So if the server should be down it is restarted to the next full hour. If you can't wait until then ou could still use Uru:CC

I only wanted to metion this, because I think the most people still have a wrong picture of the Destiny.

Another point for testing 3ds Max ages directly in MOULa is, that you can use some MOULa-only features (for example mirrors, where you can see yourself, or grass in the wind...). If you convert these ages to Uru:CC these features are removed by drizzle.

Christopher

[Calena]

It's a holiday weekend here in the States, so I have some extra time to continue this fascinating and much needed conversation .

The main problem with converted colliders is that in MOULa they're single-sided, so many fan Ages built originally for CC had the normals set the wrong direction (since it didn't matter previously). Those faces will need to be flipped. AFAIK that's the only problem we've run into converting fan Ages for Gehn.

Looking at this from an experienced age builder's point of view, as opposed to a developer's point of view, I would call this a non-issue, I'll explain further .

Back when I first was learning the basics of building for a real-time game engine, I made the noob mistake of adding collision to all my visual geometry. I have since learned the very valuable lesson that it's the colliders that contribute to lag, not the visual geometry itself. As a result, I now build simple blocks or planes around my visual age objects and those collider objects are placed on a separate layer in the Max/Blender file I'm working in. If I need to adjust the normals on those colliders, I can pop into that layer and adjust hundreds of them in a few hours. Yes, it's tedious, but very doable from my point of view.

This is the first I've heard that we can't use two sided collision in MOUL. Now I know to begin by building my colliders to accomodate that criteria. Again, that makes it a non-issue from my point of view.

I'm going to try very hard here to remember that we're answering questions raised by a brand new age builder and we need to supply him/her with the information and tools needed for the fastest easiest way to get started. IMHO, the fastest easiest way is still to build in offline URU:CC, but plan in advance for conversion to MOUL.

I still choose to do my initial building in offline URU:CC and I'll attempt to further explain. One of the facts that all age builders learn very quickly, but others don't quite seem to grasp, is that the graphic visuals rendered in the real-time environment of Plasma are unique to that environment. This is why we keep re-iterating that it will not look the same in the game as it does in whatever modeling program it was exported from. As a matter of fact, the exact same object with the exact same textures and graphic settings will appear different in the game engine if I export via Blender/pyPRP vs. Max/Cyan's plugin.

Since the only way to know exactly how any object/texture/image will look in Plasma is to actually export to Plasma and view it, age builders tend to export and adjust a lot! A whole lot. We tweek. And tweek again . . . and again and again and again. (BTW, I think Tweek took the best name for an age builder ). So when I read "You only have to upload the age when you change it", I think, "But I sometimes change it 50 times a day!".

This is one of the biggest reasons why I believe age builders have been so reluctant to utilize shards to build. From our point of view, it makes much more sense to build offline, then upload to a shard either in sections as we build or as a whole once the graphics are in place to test and adjust colliders.

I don't want to give the impression that I undervalue or in any way don't appreciate the offer of FREE to test on shards available to the age building community here. I've done my homework on this and I know that most (if not all) other building/modding environments charge real money to get server space to test and build on.

Of course, if you use custom scripts for journals and such, those will need to be made to work with the engine proper (take a look at Fehnir's House for an example). I've made changes to the moul-scripts that remove a lot of the hard-coded nonsense and make it easier for us to flexibly add new Ages using the standard PythonFileMods instead of the custom ones used by CC's KI-mods. For journals, it becomes as easy as making the .loc files in whatever languages for which you have translations, and letting the PFM do the rest.

This (and Christopher's post) provide valuable information that I wasn't aware. I'd prefer to possibly start a new thread to delve into the more advanced topics regarding conversion. DreamBliss is still at the point of wondering how to get at least a simple plane into MOUL that he/she can walk around on. I remember my first experience of walking around on a ground plane that I put into the game myself and it was very exciting . I was thrilled to tears and hooked on age building right then. This is a case of not underestimating the value of simple things.

[Rhee]

Yes, keep up the "stuff a beginner needs to know" things because I still need to know them too! haha. I've been doing my building in blender 2.61 and exporting with PyPRP2 (which is okay because i'm only at the stage of no-frills ages anyway). So some of this stuff you discuss doesn't exactly apply to me.

And i know exactly that feeling of walking around for the first time in an exported age! It had no textures, but had the basic model for the landscape and it was like SQUEEEEEEE!!!!! So now I just have to spend the next three years building and texturing a jungle (and getting the textures to export which I have not yet managed to suceed at silly PyPRP2).

The advice about using really simple shapes for colliders is timely, and I can keep it in mind for my future building! (and also for my treats for the skydivers... when i finally get this age done, Annabelle will probably mail me a big chocolate thank-you cake haha)