Story is core

[Zander]

(partly based on a post I made to GoId just now, but I think it bears repeating here)

it's emerged from the discussions over on the MOUL forums, now that they've actually got going, that I'm not the only one who felt that Cyan had fallen away from the guiding principle that they had followed from the earliest times, that (as Rand said in one of the making-ofs): "story is core." It's arguable that the multiplayer nature of the game made this principle difficult to follow, but I don't believe it made it impossible. All the Ages we saw would have benefited immeasurably from a deeper and more emotionally involving back story, and as for the main storyline of "season" one, well, let's not go into that again.

It may be understandable that Cyan had to concentrate on the minutiae of designing and coding to keep to the schedule they had set themselves, and it may be that they were saving the good story for a second "season" that they couldn't be sure was going to happen. But we have no such excuses. If we are going to make a success of any venture of this kind, either within the framework of Uru or outside it, it is vitally necessary that we go back to first principles and start from a story. Build the world and the gameplay and the puzzles around the story, keep the story at the heart of whatever we do, and I think whatever we do will have a fair chance of working. Ignore or skimp on story, leave it till the last while we concentrate on getting the texture of the trees right and the widgets working, and we will be presenting our prospective audience with something that is flashy and intricate and pretty and, ultimately, empty. Like Minkata. Like Jalak. Like MOUL.

As I said over there, I am quite prepared to be the world's biggest bore on this point, till it is either accepted or convincingly refuted, at which point I promise I'll shut up. Nynaveve has just posed the question in another thread: what's the new drama? Assuming the bahro are gone, the DRC are gone, and we're in some new Age with our fragmentary and incomplete knowledge of the Art, where's the story?

Lots of possibilities. Disagreement between explorers on the principles and practice of Age Writing, or how best to follow the beliefs of Yeesha (if at all). Discovery of new threats to our safety and how we choose to deal with them. Possible exploration of whatever D'ni Ages we might have brought with us (this depends on how draconian Cyan might want to be about enforcing copyright: whether they're happy if we just avoid their created story and characters (Atrus' family, the DRC and the Kings, basically), or utterly forbid even the use of the terms "D'ni(TM)," "Linking Book(R)" or "Age{C}." We just don't know yet.) Whatever is decided on, the main story will need to involve the audience, to tell us something about ourselves. Doesn't have to be startlingly new--Cyan got four games out of variations on children rebelling against their parents. As for the fifth, I think that possibly suffered from the same problem as MOUL: "we've made this cool Tablet thing: what kind of story can we put round it?" That's a story built round the puzzles, and it really didn't work.

As I said, there are lots of possibilities. We just need to make sure we pick one before we start to design, whether it's an individual Age or our entire game. Because story is core.

[BladeLakem]

I think that the story is core... to the narrative. But I think that there's a lot more going on than a narrative.

The D'ni setting is not so much a story, but more the lattice on which other creative endeavors can be hung. That can be story, or it can be world building (both in design and Age creation), puzzle creation, artwork, gameplay and a bunch of other different things. It's really a common mythology.

The Guild of Writers might decide that they want to extend the mythology as a part of their charter, taking on the role of Storyteller. In that case, then the story is the key design consideration. Or they may decide to focus on a supportive aspect, creating tools for Age creation and supporting those who create ages for whatever reason. Story isn't really a factor in that purpose - rather the presentation of effective and flexible options is more important.

As for what the Guild of Writers does as an entity, that's really up to the members and their leadership.

I favor the support approach, as I'd like to see a lot of different stories developed, as well as non-narrative game ages, puzzles, social areas (if multiplayer functionality is implemented somehow) and more. But that's just one wandering vagrant's opinion.

[Zander]

As is mine, Blade. I express it forcefully because I feel it's important, because I feel that the evidence shows that strongly story-based Myst-type games have worked (in the sense of attracting players) and less story-based Myst-type games haven't (in the sense of getting cancelled and of nearly driving Cyan out of business), and I want whatever we end up doing to work. You say D'ni is really a common mythology. I say that's another word for story. You say the lattice on which other endeavours are hung doesn't have to be story. I say that we've seen what happens when it isn't. I think Cyan's original approach, the one that gave us Myst and Riven, is the best possible approach to what we want to do.

But in the end, it is just an opinion. Others' views may differ and no-one is obliged to listen to or to act on mine. And you're right to point that out.

[Trylon]

I think a misunderstanding of concept is happening here.

For those who emphasize on story, the meaning of "story" is not limited to just a linear progression of events that is made clear through some means.
If also refers to "backstory", "history", "setting", and "continuity".
In short, "story" in the broadest sense of the word.

My opinion is that the "history" of an age does not necessarily have to be written before any modeling, but that it should coincide with building the age.
For example: If you decide to build a house in the age, you'd need to ask yourself: Why is this house here, what kind of person built it, why does the visitor need to explore it?

Now, the details of the answers vary from age to age. For one age "it is here because an unknown shipwrecked person built it" could be a sufficient answer.
For another age, "A newly married couple fled from their home village, and built a home in this valley" would be an answer, but more questions would be needed, like "are they planning to have children?" or "Why this valley, or this spot?" The answers to those questions determine the content of the valley or the house.

It all depends on the level of detail needed....

[katreeny]

Weighing in on this topic with my two cents worth, I agree that a strong story is needed to keep people interested and keep them coming back - however, the strong story needs to be something more than a simple narrative as Trylon pointed out.

First, we have the backstory/departure from Ae'gura/Earth/D'ni storyline. That needs to at least make sense. The good/bad bahro story failed not because it was bad in and of itself, but because it didn't affect us. We hardly ever saw bahro, much less the impact of the bahro war story. Compare that to Riven, where we gradually learned the what was at stake and were drawn into the fate of the Rivenese and the Moiety, as well as threatened by Gehn's madness.

If we have a reasonable departure story, or the Earth-based haven story as a basis point, we can use that to generate many other storylines for exploration - an example is the Odyssey story I'm posting in this forum. That one is deliberately framed in the classic Myst style of exploring Ages to find hints as to what has occurred in the past in order to solve a major problem. Once the Odyssey storyline has been completed and played out, I have no objections to any of the worlds in it becoming part of a larger story. There are at least two civilizations in the Odyssey story that could prove hostile to explorers and have the potential ability to link between Ages. (This is just one example of a way to introduce an ongoing conflict that doesn't rely on Yeesha or the bahro war or the DRC. No doubt others have more ideas).

There's room in this kind of framework to have "adventure" ages where there's a definite problem to solve and a strong storyline, garden and retreat ages that are mostly there to be beautiful - I'm sure I'm not the only one who's sat watching the play of light on Relto for hours, or watched the desert sunrise in the pods, or relaxed in Delin or Tsoghal - game ages like Jalak, training ages like Minkata and Camp Bravo, community ages like Ae'gura... If we have the core and a steady stream of story ages along with an ongoing story of fledgling Writers (and others) learning the Arts to save something precious to us and growing as we do, I think we can make the new world live and flourish.

Regards,
Katreeny

[Zander]

Well, I think even the Ages that are there to be beautiful would have benefited from a history. I would have loved to know more about Tsogal and Delin, why they were Written and by whom. Certainly Ages like Minkata and Jalak would--for one thing, if Jalak had been designed around a story and not just as scenery for a casual game it would have been designed much more logically, and I think everyone would have found that more satisfying, even the ones who liked it as it was. And Minkata--why those star patterns? What were their significances? How do they tie in to the history of the Age, and what questions do they raise that a later Age can answer? Even if something is good as it is, a good story at the heart will make it better.

Yes, story is much more than "and then he did, and then she did." Story, as Blade suggested, is the lattice that can tie all our creativity together. Something in one Age can refer back to the story of a previous Age and cast a new light on it, and something else in the same Age can be a hook that can be picked up in another Age down the line. We can all design our individual Ages, and put in our puzzles and so on, but the only thing that can knit them together into a coherent experience, into a game...is story.

[katreeny]

Well, I think even the Ages that are there to be beautiful would have benefited from a history. I would have loved to know more about Tsogal and Delin, why they were Written and by whom. Certainly Ages like Minkata and Jalak would--for one thing, if Jalak had been designed around a story and not just as scenery for a casual game it would have been designed much more logically, and I think everyone would have found that more satisfying, even the ones who liked it as it was. And Minkata--why those star patterns? What were their significances? How do they tie in to the history of the Age, and what questions do they raise that a later Age can answer? Even if something is good as it is, a good story at the heart will make it better.

Yes, story is much more than "and then he did, and then she did." Story, as Blade suggested, is the lattice that can tie all our creativity together. Something in one Age can refer back to the story of a previous Age and cast a new light on it, and something else in the same Age can be a hook that can be picked up in another Age down the line. We can all design our individual Ages, and put in our puzzles and so on, but the only thing that can knit them together into a coherent experience, into a game...is story.

Oh, agreed. Even if it was just "Delin was written for So'n'so during the Great Garden Age binge of XXXX, and the door and cloths mysteriously appeared between when the DRC approved the Age and when it was released to explorers."

Jalak... I think would have been hugely improved by a list of some of the games thought to have been played there, and a bit of detritus, like the remnants of stadium seating on the walls, maybe a broken bridge that led to the ruin of a change room - something to suggest that yes, there were games played there, and played by teams.

There's no reason why we can't create Ages simply to be beautiful or to play with, and then let them build their own story as time passes. The tale of the epic game of Whatsis played between the Uber team and the Paradox team in Fakawi can be told to newcomers, and embellished, and build its own legends

On the flip side, there's also no reason we can't attach history to our ages and claim them as discoveries rather than creations. As I understand things, Cyan canon suggests a mix of both - the ability to visualize something probable and nail it down in the words of a descriptive book, thereby bringing it into full existence if it wasn't already there. (I could go into some really bizarre and obscure branches of quantum physics here, but the short-short version is that if it can possibly exist it does exist somewhere in space-time).

Katreeny

[BAD]

What I would like to see "here" (meaning the GOW forum) is that the people who have stories to tell, the people who have art to draw, the people who have models to build, and the people who have puzzles and code to add, find and work with each other.

Their are going to be many many opinions on what may or may not be the correct way to write the story of an age. As there are opinions on what makes a good age, and so on.

What is essential is not how things are written (beyond just plain bad writing), but that the writing, designing, building, and coding mix together in a harmonious way.

I like that this discussion has been brought up. It shows that our storytellers are coming out of the wood work. I can't wait to see how this develops into rich and full worlds for us to create and discover.

[Zander]

Thanks, BAD. I admit I tend to focus on the "one Writer, one Age" method, partly because I have this image of myself as the compleat Renaissance man and want to do it all , but also because that way the maximum number of people get to "discover" the Age. But it's not the only way, as you rightly point out, and co-operation can help us all improve our skills. We could run some more challenges along this line--someone who's good at art puts up a bunch of pictures and we provide the story behind what we see, or someone who's good at story posts a description of an Age and we provide examples of the kind of puzzle that would harmonise with the environment, and so on.

"Specialisation is for insects," said Robert A Heinlein. I rather tend to think this is balderdash, because people do have things they're better at than others, but there's no harm in trying to diversify.

And you're absolutely right:

There are going to be many many opinions on what may or may not be the correct way to write the story of an age.

Katreeny, I think it's taken as a given that every Age comes with its own history, whether you believe that it was Written into existence or that it was already there. (That's one argument I'm avoiding right now.) Even if that doesn't involve people or other intelligent beings, it can still add interest and significance to an Age to know what it is.

[BAD]

There is something to be said for one writer one age too. I was just trying to throw some other thoughts and directions into the discussion.

I would say equal danger is in over specializing, and trying to take to much on by yourself.

Hopefully we can find a happy middle while we explore the extremes......