When to Elect?

[Pryftan]

I have absolutely no idea, if you read my notes on how a council would function, you could conclude that they would slow anything down at all. They would only speed things up and ensure Cyan has somebody to speak with about the Guild's progress and infrastructure. If you don't feel like elections are the right way to go about it, well, that's a valid viewpoint. But claiming a council will slow things is just silly in my opinion.

I don't understand why so many of my points are continuingly falling on deaf ears. When I said "immediate", as I elucidated in a number of posts, I meant start talking about it and get it worked out within a month or so. That way, Cyan will know we're making progress and moving forward, organizing ourselves into a model they can actually talk to. They will not and cannot talk to the body of Writers as a whole.

And I'm not going to ask people to step forward, that's kind of the entire point of the nomination idea. There are people who won't step forward due to their mostly taking background roles that should be part of such a council despite that. The council isn't supposed to be comprised of the people who yell the loudest. It's supposed to be comprised of the people who would know best how a project should run. Elections pick people who should lead instead of people who talk like they lead. I don't know how many times I've said that.

You keep telling me that people will take initiative and lead the Guild in a direction. I've been trying to lead the Guild in the direction I very much believe Cyan wants to see us move in. But it's not working. This is exactly why people need official positions. There are too many opinions for us to decide anything.

[Jojon]

There are too many opinions for us to decide anything.

I don't know what Cyan wants, but as for myself, I'd rather see we embrace our multitude of opinions and make the best of that, rather than make a home that pretty much copies a few thousand years of "mistakes" from the surface. Yes, I put that unfairly and no, I have not got a working solution to show off - just wanted to vent, sorry. :7

[BAD]

Folks,

Who said that the Guild council will be in direct control of any projects?

Who said that everything done must be decided by the GC?

No one did.

Please refrain from jumping to conclusions. We do not have a system set up already that details how the GC will run. We only want to come up with a way to elect Guild Council members. Once we have Guild Managers we can then figure out what their functions will be.

No one will benefit from people immediately shooting down the GC just because they are spooked about people being in charge.

If we set this up right, no one will be directly in charge, but we will have a strong council that serves the Guild, not the other way around.

[Pryftan]

Yeah, what he said.

;D

[Chacal]

I've been trying to lead the Guild in the direction I very much believe Cyan wants to see us move in. But it's not working. This is exactly why people need official positions. There are too many opinions for us to decide anything.

I think you're forgetting Occam's razor.
A simpler reason why it's not working would be because people just don't agree with the direction.
Try with a different direction.

[Pryftan]

Oh, I believe that the people who are have been active in the last day or two disagree with me, for sure. But I'm not being overwhelmed, or anything. The poll is 43% to 57% last I checked.

[Chacal]

Oh then maybe it's too early to say it's not working.

[Trylon]

I'd like to add that my post was not primarily directed against having leadership right now.

My intent was primarily to provide some perspective on elections themselves as a means for it.
From what I've seen our american friends are so used to their way of having elections for many things, that establishing a leadership in most cases comse down to a fairly default way of:
- You need to be nominated (preferably by someone else)
- You need to do campaining.
- You need to be elected.
- There always needs to be a term.

And while I'm not going to discuss if that is or isn't a good way in politics. It strongly think that it will not work satisfactory in the case of this small group, mostly because we need people with a lot of experience on certain subjects, and the best candidates aren't always the ones that feel like nominating themselves, or do campaining.

Now, I'm not saying the people here shouldn't have any say.

I propose another system, more in style of e.g. corporate leadership:
The current interim leadership, along perhaps with one or two people they choose are the temporary council ([council]).
The [council] makes a list of future council positions, and directions, and puts this in a proposal, which can be accepted by a poll.
Then the [council] looks for people who can and want to fill up the position. If they think someone is capable, they can ask if he/she want's to.
When this is done, this list is again put in a proposal, that is submitted for acceptance to the group (through another poll). When the proposal is accepted, the new council is in place. If it is not, they make another proposal, based on the comments in the poll's thread.

The new council will then also use the proposal system to make important decisions.

This can be expanded to e.g. "a group of three or more non-council writers can also submit a proposal"
and "a group of three or more non-council writers can submit a motion of distrust against one or more councilmen, which is validated if supported by 50% or more of the active non-council writers in a week"

[belford]

Ok, there's a lot of this thread since the last time I read it... My reactions:

One: Pryftan is guessing that Cyan is (or will be) pegging their cooperation to the Guild's level of organization. For the record, I disagree with that guess. I think Cyan is far more interested in our progress in developing Age tools, and creating Ages.

One and a half: *I* am far more interested in our progress in developing Age tools, and creating Ages. What is the purpose of the Guild? To help people create Ages. Not to run elections, write a constitution, or any of that. We do that organizational stuff *if needed* and *when needed* to help people create Ages. If an Age doesn't benefit, we shouldn't bother.

(And trying to outguess Cyan is a fool's game. If this is a test, it's a dumb one. They are perfectly capable of *telling* us what their conditions are.)

Two: solve specific problems now. Keep general solutions in mind, but don't try to *start* with the general solution. None of us know what the needs for a Guild Council *are* yet; we're only guessing what kind of problems might need solving.

So, the only *actual* problem that's been named -- that I saw - was the showcase age. Is the showcase age project bogged down? If the answer is "no", there's no leadership problem. End of story.

I haven't actually been following the showcase board, so I don't have an opinion on whether it's bogged down. A quick look reveals a lot of ideas and interested people, but nobody picking a precise plan or assigning tasks. That looks like a leadership need to me, so I will continue analyzing as if the answer were "yes". If I'm wrong, that's fantastic -- continue as you were.

If the showcase is bogged down, it doesn't need a guild council. It needs a project leader. There's your election. You've got a bunch of people interested in the showcase -- actual people, I see their names on the "Official Participants" thread. Someone can jump up and say "Look, I can run this mess. Any other candidates?" If the people involved agree on a candidate, the problem is solved. If there's only one candidate, the problem is solved.

If the people involved *can't* agree, well, nothing will force them to agree. They can pick different projects, or go play Sam&Max.

If nobody wants to stand up and play project leader (*I* certainly don't) then, again, nothing can force it to happen. Perhaps no leader is needed after all. (My experience with volunteer development projects says that you need a single person making decisions. But my experience has been wrong about stuff before.)

Anyway, my point is, solve the specific problem. Then solve tomorrow's specific problem tomorrow. After a few of those, we'll know enough to design the general solutions.

[BAD]

Again I think you are missing the point Bedford.

We are not setting up the council as a means to any specific end besides having a leadership role filled.

Cyan is a business, they are not going to make any grand announcement that they are ready to consider fan created content. They are going to want to approach us privately at first, and then work with us to make that happen. That is not a guess, or presuming what Cyan will do, it is something I have directly dealt with in the past, and I strongly feel that Cyan will want to deal with the GOW in that respect.

I'm sorry if it seems we are forcing this, I can assure you we are not. If a majority of people don't want a council then I would agree that a council is not needed right now. However I am getting a general feel from most of the people here that they want some kind of representative body. If I am wrong I would like to see the proof. That means people need to vote in the polls.

Also let me apologize for backing the democratic system. I think you should understand that the US is NOT a democratic system of government. It hasn't been since John Adams was president. We are a Republic. We elect via a system that allows the US to be ran by representatives as a complete governing body. They make the laws, the only power we have is to elect them to office. This varies at the state and local levels but nationally we are not as democratic as we appear to be.

I don't want a republic here. I also don't agree that we can just let our leaders naturally come forward. No one is going to want to do that. We have many people here who have enough knowledge and wisdom to lead, but they won't unless we have some way of putting them in a position to lead. I have found in my life that the best leaders are unwilling to lead. Most natural leaders are scared to lead. That is a good thing. We don't want arrogant leaders, we want those who will be able to make the best decisions.

I also want to make it clear too that this guild is small now, but it is growing. Also many things are going on in the background. I believe we need to get somewhat organized to be prepared for whatever Cyan throws at us. A council may be just what Cyan is looking for.

Also I have not seen one compelling argument against having a council. The only thing I see is fear of being told what to do. This has to stop. Nobody here wants to be told what to do. No one here SHOULD be told what to do. We are not planning to tell anyone what to do. We just want to be prepared, and have an organized way to settle problems and disputes. Also I don't see anyway that a council could impede the development of tools and ages, if anything, I can only see a council aiding those efforts.

Anyway, my point is, solve the specific problem. Then solve tomorrow's specific problem tomorrow. After a few of those, we'll know enough to design the general solutions.

Who solves these problems? You yourself shy away from a leadership role, even though you would be a suitable candidate to be a project leader. This is why we need a council. We have a need for a decision making entity. Again, I don't agree that they should be in charge of the guild directly, but I bet if we had a council, they would be able to find someone to be the project coordinator on the showcase age faster than we all just waiting around for someone to volunteer.

Think of them as judges, not as a senate or parliament. They will be able to protect and promote whatever rules we decide for the guild, but they won't be able to make or change rules directly.

Sometimes I wish I could let others see what is in my head. I think it would stop a lot of these kinds of arguments.