Some Waveset Observations....

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Some Waveset Observations....

Postby andylegate » Thu May 22, 2008 8:50 am

Please note for those reading this, the Waveset mod is NOT in the official PyPRP release. It is in the Nightly Build. Use at you're own risk.

First thing that I noticed was the problems involving a large body of water vs. small body (IE Ocean or large lake vs. small pond, pool or puddle).
For anyone that has been working on something like this (or those about to) one of your first problems is the lack of a mesh!
In Zephyr Cove, I simply had the beach sloping into the water, and then suddenly drop off into nothingness. As the water plane that I had put over this was covering the fact that the sea floor was non-existant. I never dreamed that the Waveset would be based upon the mesh of the BOTTOM of the pool/ocean/pond/etc!

My next thought was to take the outside vertex of the beach mesh and just extrude them out, make faces, seperated it from the actual beach, and then follow the steps for making the wave set! Wroooooooong! My ocean looked like shattered glass! With huge triangle shapped splinters, some with no ripples, and smaller areas with many ripples. yick.

In theory that sounded good. In practice, it resulted in a wave set that looked horrible! D'Lanor had suggested to use a mesh with a minimum of faces, mostly because he was seeing a "disappearing water" effect. Something that I had experienced in Er'Cana with my old video graphics card both with Uru:CC and MOUL. The water would flicker out of existance, and then sometimes re-appear if I moved my view around. But only the water that surrounded the "Mixer Units". In the "Mixer Units" the water never did that. Nor did the water in any of the other Ages do this either.
Since I've upgraded my computer, and have a newer video card (it's a nVidia XFX GT8500, ePCI with 256 MB, Shader 4.0 compliant) I have not experienced this anymore in either Uru:CC or MOUL while it was still up.

So I decided to take a look at what the Masters had done. Lucky me, I had imported Er'Cana and Sphere 1 with a plugin version that will still do it (sorry Dev Guys, but Importing is still important, we have not learned all there is to learn, modeling wise, and some people, like stupid me, accidently trashed their Blend file to one of their own ages, and now I need to import my own age!), to see what I could learn.

First I took a look at Ahnonay, Sphere 1. That's a large body of water like what I'm dealing with. Here is what I saw:

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As you can see, they made their mesh pretty flat, except for the drop off from the land in the middle. Also notice how the amount of faces increase as you get closer and closer to the center. To me it looked like they had taken a sphere mesh, cut it in half, and then flattened it, then edited it to contour with the land in the middle.

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So I decided to take a look at Er'cana, specifically the mixers themselves. That is some choppy looking water. Here is what I saw:

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Note how in this case, a much smaller mesh, the amount of faces do not increase as you get closer to the center. However, one interesting note is the fact that this mesh is physically located a lot higher and closer to what ends up being the water surface, and not the actual bottom of the mixer itself. Also this mesh is completely flat (on a side note the other water (the ones that used to flicker with my old card, the mesh's are NOT very uniform......they actually looked like something I had made! Rough and Crude!!! :D Maybe that had something to do with the problem?).

So armed with this knowledge, I opened up Zephyr once more and went to work. Took about 2 days to get what I wanted, but here was the mesh I had made:

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Not as perfect as Cyan's of course, but close enough for what I wanted. I subdivided and increased the amount of faces much closer to the shore line. After exporting and linking in, it was great!! The water looked uniform and in flymode I noticed something: where I had much more faces, the ripples were more numerous, than way out where there are less faces or the faces are much bigger.

So it seems that, for large bodies of water at least, you need to make sure you have a nice uniform mesh, until you get closer to shore, then have an increased amount of faces, which you will get anyway as you contour your mesh with your shore line.

I've not had a chance to play with the Z height of the mesh. I don't know if this would increase wave height itself, or increase the amount of ripples.

Off to make the foamy ripples at the shore edge. Got a bit confused about what texture to supply, but Nadnerb cleared that up, also the fact that you need to unwrap your UV map so that all the faces line up in the right direction of the texture.

One thing to note: if you want your "foam" to fade off in the direction to the water: DO NOT USE ALPHA VERTEX PAINTING! As was noted in the other thread, it will crash your age!
Instead, use a texture that has a fade off on one end of it. This will make it blend with the water.

Another thing to note: you need to finish editing your mesh for you waveset before you make your shore. I don't recommend doing so after you've made your shore foam, as it caused my to disappear, and to then not look right. I ended up having to make it all over again.

I also noted that the "shore" mesh with my foam was not appearing to reach the actual land of the shore. I had to move it towards the shore, approx half it's blender width, before it finally looked right.

End result of that was this:

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Now of course I have to go back and edit my swim region, sound regions for the splashy sounds you make while walking and the crunchy ground sound. But that's okay, it's all worth it in the end.

The Dev's have given us a VERY powerful tool here. My wife walked by me as I sat here in front of my computer. I was looking at the view you see above, watching the clouds animate. I had already put in some water lapping sounds. As she walked by, she said: "Oh, you linked in to Noloben to look at their water?"
Zephyr does not look anywhere near as good as Noloben......but if by putting this waveset in made her think it WAS Noloben at a simple glance, then I'm both very flattered, and very thankful to the Dev's for this new feature! :D

Okay...I decided to give this "Decal" thing in the ALCscript under wavesets a try. No idea what it's for, nor has anyone else mentioned it yet. I thought maybe it applies some decal to the wave set.
So I did the following: I duplicated my waveset mesh, renamed it. redid the texture for it with a actual water texture. Made sure ShadowBuf was off. Listed it in the ALCscript for the wave set. Exported it (it exported fine) and then tried to link in.

Result: Uru crashed so hard, I had to physically reset my computer!
So DO NOT do it the way I did, you'll just crash!

I put that away for now, and now I'm trying to see if and how I can increase the wave hight and also make my water lapping sound all up and down my shore line, but not hear it way back in the caves either......

That's it for now. If I figure out anything else that no one else has noted, I'll post it here.
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby Sophia » Thu May 22, 2008 11:12 am

Oh wow, the end result is gorgeous! Very nice indeed and I am so pleased with this new feature. By the time I am ready to create something, I am sure many future versions of PyPRP will have been released already :)
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby Grogyan » Thu May 22, 2008 11:16 am

Which plugin did you use for importing Andy?
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby andylegate » Thu May 22, 2008 11:40 am

Er'cana was imported back with Alcugs 0.5

Sphere 1 was imported with 1.3.0? I think? or maybe it was 1.2.1, but those will put just about everything in layer 1, and they'll extract the textures, but you will not see them applied in the 3D window like you did with Alcugs 0.5.

Paradox said that the Dev Team will not be supporting Importing anymore, but concentrating on features and exporting. However, I would recomend using Alcugs 0.5 for importing, as mostly what you'll learn from importing Cyan Ages is modeling, and how they applied some textures to get the result they did.

Right now, it's helped me a LOT on the Waveset to see how they had their meshes. For example, in Sphere 1, you just don't have the waveset mesh for the water. You have two other meshes there, one called Tide and another one called FakeSurface. Also, with Er'cana: the water around the mixers (and in the area before the control room) is just a waveset, but it's very shallow and you see the textures they applied to the bottom and sides.
The mixers however, they have the waveset AND another mesh at the water hight called PoolSurface.

So in some cases, just applying a waveset will be fine (like a shallow pool or pond, swimming pool), but in like my case, or a large lake, that's not good enough, the water is TOO transparent. I can see way down no mater what I set the ALCscripting to.
That and while the surface is reflective, the ocean will need something like what they have in Sphere 1, which I'm working on now to see if I can pull it off.
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby andylegate » Thu May 22, 2008 12:52 pm

Okay....I just learned that the Decal part of the ALCscript for Wavesets is for making footstep decals.......the wet footsteps you see when an avatar walks into and then out of the water.

That would explain why my system crashed so hard.....ehehe......

I am having some luck with making a seperate mesh for an actual water texture. More on that later.
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby Nadnerb » Thu May 22, 2008 4:04 pm

Okay, the "decals" ref in wavesets is still partially unknown. It would appear that it is possible to make the waveset apply it's own environment map to objects referenced this way, and apply a normal map from the layer. None of this has been tried yet, however.

The "fake" surface objects are not rendered if you see the waveset. They have a different LoadMask and will only appear if your graphics settings are changed. (then the "fake" surface will appear instead of the waveset) We currently don't have the ability to change this mask using PyPRP alone, so for the moment, you can ignore those surfaces.
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby andylegate » Thu May 22, 2008 4:30 pm

Ah! But I'm glad I didn't!

I understand what you're saying Nadnerb (and that makes the name of the object a LOT more understandable). However, my ocean is just TOO transparent, no mater what I set the opac to. I mean, for shallow and small puddles, that's great, but not for my ocean.

So I tried the 2nd mesh. I found that once I got it lowered about 4 to 5 feet (Units) under the water height, it acutally looks pretty damn good! I used a very cloudy aquamarine green texture on it. So as you peer down into the water, it goes from a deep blue transparent, into a very dark color that turns opaque. So now you can't see my rock bottoms, nor 20 feet down where the sea bed ends. (all though out on the Isle of Capri in Italy, I've stood on a 200 meter cliff and looked down and could see up to 20 meters down in the water....it's that clear!).
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby andylegate » Fri May 23, 2008 8:44 am

Think I may have run into a snag with Wavesets.

After finally being satisfied with my ocean, I went and put in wavesets in the very small canal and wells in my little cavern. These wavesets are small, no where near the size of the ocean. Easy to do too since they are in "Man Made" canals.

Anyway, prior to adding these littler wavesets, everything was running smoothly. Since I've added them, my Age is now herky jerky. Not to where it's not playable, but every 3 seconds if like your' walking or running, it suddenly pauses for a split second.

I saved the blend file as another name, took out the newer wavesets, exported again.....Age went back to running fine.

PS> Opaque settings: Nadnerbs tutorial is based up on the water height is at 0 and the pool depth is -0.57 something. So he set the start and end to 0 and 0.5 respectively.

What do I set them to if my water height is -57.65 and the canal bottom is let's say -62.4??? Do I set the Start to 57.65 and the end to 62.4?
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby MustardJeep » Fri May 23, 2008 9:09 am

How many wavesets are we talking about?

The Lags in frame rate could be caused by multiple Wavesets running at the same time. Normals are used to cut the processing required to render the water but if the "off" feature isn't implemented they will still be running whenever you are pointed in the right direction despite being out of your field of view.
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Re: Some Waveset Observations....

Postby andylegate » Fri May 23, 2008 9:18 am

A vis region would help, but as far as I know, those are not implemented yet, or if they are, no one has talked about them.
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