Another RAD Contest Proposal

[Lontahv]

Andy, I was wondering about the same thing with the textures and how I was using CG textures etc.

It would be ok to use Cyan's textures except that the RAD info explicitly states:
RAD

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RAD stands for Rapid Age Development and is also a layman's term for something real cool.

The general concept is to gather lots of people to write Ages or Shells and show off to everyone what can be done in a short space of time. It doesn't matter if you finish it on time or not, as after the contest you can go and finish it off.

For the winner, your entry is added to the RAD Hall of Fame.

During the contest you'll have a few weeks to come up with a concept and implement it to the best of your ability.

Rapid development contests have been around for a while now, especially with other game programming efforts. So, now is the time to bring that concept here - making worlds for everyone to share.

Disclaimer: You can't distribute Cyan World's files.

This is fresh in my mind because I just rewrote that a day or two ago to make it more readable.

Andy, I completely understand how you must feel that you thought you were done but then this pops up.

[andylegate]

The change you make to the wiki didn't make it easier to read, you changed what it meant instead.

Old quote from the wiki rad explination:

Disclaimer: You can only distribute your own files, all the rest are Intellectual Property of Cyan Worlds

to

Disclaimer: You can't distribute Cyan World's files.

This directly conflicts with what RAWA and Chogon (aka Mark D) have recently informed us:

Hi Andy,

Sorry it took so long to reply.

I talked to Rich (aka RAWA) and he said: "Continuity-wise, I would prefer them to use our textures for the cavern specifically for the reasons given here, but I don't know if that throws up any red flags for the "legal department"."

Which I replied with: as long as the textures are only used in Uru and MORE fan created ages and artwork. In other words, only used with the plasma engine (MORE, ULM, etc.) within the FCAL agreement (not for commercial use, etc.).

Thanks,
Mark

From this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2422

Also, Chogon (aka Mark D) responded to Whilyam in the same way, but even broader about this issue:

Also, if any Cyan assets are used in building this age, we do stipulate that these assets can only be used with the plasma engine for fan create ages (i.e. MORE, ULM, etc.).

Also from the same thread.

So, yes, Cyan does NOT want us distributing their game files. However, we have been granted the ability to use their assets to do Age Building with, so long as it used with Plasma for use in Uru, MORE, etc, etc, but not for profit, resale, etc, etc.

Both textures I used that were in question had been modified by me, they no longer even had the same name as the textures that had been used by Cyan. RGB values had been changed, some masking added in one, and another even recropped and resized. It was for ease of use, and speed as not every Age Builder is a Master at making Textures, Sculpting Meshes, Writing Code, Making Music, or being a proffesional Novelist to write a story.

So just what are you guys going to do for future RAD's? Hmmm? What about a RAD for the Cavern? RAWA wants continuity, that includes the way things look, meaning that rock texture had better match, etc. Your statement above conflicts with this if you try to apply it to textures, that Cyan has said we can use....

It's a moot point now: I've removed said textures from my RAD Age, and have since replaced them. I'll repost the link to the new file later today.

Again, however, this is the last for me, as it's left a bad taste in my mouth. Not just this issue, but Y'all took a simple idea I brought over here, and turned it into something else (go back and read my first post in this thread). Y'all want to tell me the background story and history of Tsogal and Delin? Hmmm?

[Lontahv]

It was pretty odd having it say any files that weren't yours are Cyan's Intellectual Property. This means that Cyan owns all of the world except your personal property.

That line should be either changed or taken out. Because I want to use stuff that's not property of me but is licensed to me. I thought that line was trying to imply: "You shouldn't use stuff that you shouldn't use. You shouldn't use Cyan's stuff."

Also, Chogon said nothing about being able to use their textures in the RAD contest. That text was in the RAD rules not the general rules. Basically whatever the RAD folks want is law during RAD.

By editing that I just meant to make it true. Because Cyan DOES NOT own my neighbor.

But yeah, the textures in question aren't really files. More like re-encoded file-segments from Cyan's files.

I do agree with Andy on the point about how his idea was changed into something rather different and sometimes very confusing. Hopefully we can make the categories a little more contest-specific or have them so you only get discredited for things you tried to do and ended up doing them badly.

[Grogyan]

I took your suggestion Andy and re read your first post in this thread, and we have outlined the rules pretty darn well to what you had envisioned.

Size
Ambience, story etc.

Both Bob's and Willyam's Ages so far fit well with the whole concept of a place to chill out relax, or something that isn't puzzle driven


Thats right about Chogon saying nothing about using their assets for our amusement, and I have been following with the assumption which I never bothered to recheck on, that we cannot use their assets.


As for creating new areas of D'ni, rock texture should change as the geology from one part of the cavern can very easily change on another, hence different textures.

[D'Lanor]

So has anything been stated officially? All I see are quotes from personal emails. The first one quotes discussions between Cyantists, but nowhere do they reach a final conclusion. We do see that RAWA mentions "textures for the cavern specifically". The other email quote is just an "if" statement so what does it mean anyway?

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking going on here. IMO Cyan's textures are not to be used until they officially say so.

And why would you want to use Cyan's textures anyway? Where is the fun in that? Be creative! Even if we get an official OK from Cyan, the RAD can still have its own rules in order to stimulate creativity.

And btw, what happened to the GoW texture repository plan (for those who are still too lazy to create their own)?

[Whilyam]

Yes my sky is from Noloben (and this is rather unusual.....most RADS the contestants don't come here and start blabbing about someone elses Age, but that's okay), as it fit.

I'm sorry if it sounded like tattling. I simply wanted to know if there was an exception for Cyan textures (and more importantly sounds) because I hoped I could quickly add those before the deadline.

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking going on here. IMO Cyan's textures are not to be used until they officially say so.

That's what Andy posted. Both Andy and I received blanket permission to use Cyan assets so long as they were not used for something like There or Second Life but strictly Plasma. Additionally, I received this permission without ever asking for it. While the project is a D'ni Age, I nowhere asked for use of Cyan assets.

And why would you want to use Cyan's textures anyway? Where is the fun in that? Be creative! Even if we get an official OK from Cyan, the RAD can still have its own rules in order to stimulate creativity.

Continuity for one. If I'm making a place in D'ni there are a handful of textures which I might need to use depending on where I'm modeling (i.e. inside a cave, I should have the rock and stalagmite textures).

And btw, what happened to the GoW texture repository plan (for those who are still too lazy to create their own)?

Here.

[D'Lanor]

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking going on here. IMO Cyan's textures are not to be used until they officially say so.

That's what Andy posted. Both Andy and I received blanket permission to use Cyan assets so long as they were not used for something like There or Second Life but strictly Plasma. Additionally, I received this permission without ever asking for it.

Sorry, but none of the quotes show that. So to me it remains wishful thinking.

[teedyo]

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking going on here. IMO Cyan's textures are not to be used until they officially say so.

That's what Andy posted. Both Andy and I received blanket permission to use Cyan assets so long as they were not used for something like There or Second Life but strictly Plasma. Additionally, I received this permission without ever asking for it.

Sorry, but none of the quotes show that. So to me it remains wishful thinking.

I've been in total agreement with D'Lanor here but something in the snippet that Andy posted caught my eye. I had missed it in the original post:

Which I replied with: as long as the textures are only used in Uru and MORE fan created ages and artwork. In other words, only used with the plasma engine (MORE, ULM, etc.) within the FCAL agreement (not for commercial use, etc.).

Thanks,
Mark

emphases added by me. Whilyam later explicitly stated that his response was under the auspices of a FCAL agreement. So, if Andy received a FCAL for his RAD entry; than he's covered legality-wise. This just leaves the rule that you must create your own content in play.

[Nadnerb]

The RAD rules didn't, shouldn't, and never could have, stated that your content is limited to what you personally create with your own hands. You can use assets such as textures that you have permission to use. Which should be read, anything you have permission to use. If Andy has permission (in this case, from cyan) to use the textures he's using, then the rules (should) allow it. As it is, the rules were rather naive in their assumptions. But that seems to happen every time, and result in just as much drama each time.

Just because I feel like it, I'll extend the 'personal creation' analogy to a ridiculous conclusion. If you had to make everything yourself, you'd have to poke out all your textures in paint, write pyprp, blender, windows, etch your own processor and boards, construct your monitor, and weld together a generator to make the power to run it all. NO

The 'rapid' age development contest is or should be about what the contestants can put together quickly, and you can't do that if you have to start from scratch on everything. You can use concept ideas that existed before the start of the contest, textures that existed before the start of the contest, even models that existed before the contest. The idea is that the age is assembled from an amorphous idea into a coherent age during the course of the contest. Didn't we go over something similar before?

[Chacal]

It is not our concern if a RAD participant uses someone else's IP.
That's a problem between the participant and the owner of the IP.

The rules for a contest should exist only for the purposes of assuring a level playing field for all contestants.

Andy, I'm glad you could submit your entry.
Maybe next time, your level of frustration will have lowered enough so you'll reconsider?