ULM alternative?

[Grogyan]

I tried once the UU patch before path of the shell, then I had done something and lost the patch when I re installed the game.

I then tried again soon after the downfall of MOUL, with my original copies of ABM and PoTs, and then even just with the ABM installed I found it hard to find the patch, which didn't work and just corrupted the game files

Even so I petitioned Cyan to allow us to have offline marker games, that way we can at least have great fun outside of a server.
Also, way back when UAM was around I didn't really like the interface, ULM was better, but I felt that it neglected the use of the Nexus, which could have lent itself to us to better try and force Cyan to integrate our Ages seamlessly.

So I support Diafero and co for producing this for us, but it still needs to go through the proper channel with Cyan.

[Justintime9]

Wow... I don't know why I never thought of that stuff... What about the User KI though? Back in UU, someone distributed altered URU files, in the form of the UserKI. It was used by many people in certain Shards, other than D'mala. Was that Illegal? Or did cyan give them permission to do it? If the latter is true, then why don't we do like one of you suggested, and E-mail cyan? I don't know why they wouldn't allow it...
As far as the up arrow key, I think it might have been a side effect from other things I had in there... So, it might not have been the KI...

[greendragoon]

I think it should be pointed out that this may well fall squarely under fair use. There are four criteria for determining whether a piece falls under fair use, two of which really apply here:

amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

The portion of Cyan material used in this hack in minuscule compared to the the over all work of Uru. Insidentally, this is why no one is suing over Uru fan videos.

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Even if Uru:CC was currently available today, and Cyan was actively making money on it's sale, the release of this hack does not have negative impact as it cannot be used without the product.

So I think that it's safe to say that the question here is not even one of a legal nature. I think what Lontahv and Grogyan are worried about is that it will damage the GoW's relationship with Cyan. That Cyan won't like this hack. Personally, I don't think that it's all that far from what ULM does, and Cyan has been okay with that.

Of Interesting Note: You'll actually note that the the drizzle "distribution of the MOUL files" fiasco does not pass either of these criteria.

/me steps off high horse.

I tried the KI offline, and my Uru install just crashed once it got past the intro videos. Once I get back home, I'll try it with a clean install.

[Chacal]

I will try to do some documentation about how to add your own links to Relto and Nexus and your own panels, but I don't yet know when I will find the time to do so (I actually thought the syntax ix quite easy to understand ).

It is, but the meaning is not. For example, it is not clear in the comments that the file affects both the Nexus and the Relto bookshelf. Also, linking rules (regular or default) doesn't mean anything to me.
The file shows how to put several links per book, but those don't match what I have in my bookshelf for the Cyan books. Also it is not clear how multiple links are handled by the Nexus.

I had no problems with the up arrow key. Do you still have that issue, Justintime, and can anyone else reproduce it?

No, worked fine for me. Maybe Justin should try hitting F4 and look at his keyboard mapping.

And before I forget it: There is also a "/avatar <new avatar type"> KI command I forgot in the KI command list.

There's also /float that you can use before /jump (brought great memories from the UU days), although those two commands are pretty useless when you have flymode ( by the way, there doesn't seem to be any kind of bounds checking on inputs, leading to potential problems. Can I /jump up to the surface? ).

Also you can /suitup and get the maintainer suit, without a helmet.

Also you included in the package several things that have no relation to the KI. While I enjoy getting to see Shroomie up close every time I walk up to the shore, this is an unexpected side-effect that you should document. There are several new versions of some basic Python classes that seem to bear no relation to the userKI. I think you should either package them separately or at least document the changes.

In order to collect the links to KveerMystV, Direbo and the other new ages in your Relto, you will have to link there once. AFAIK, the only way to do that currently is Andy's Nexus.

Ha! THAT'S why I couldn't get the books. That nearly drove me mad. Thanks for the explanation. Maybe this could be documented.

but seeing how many people already complained about the some files I already distribute, I'm sure that would result in an even bigger wave of complaints.

Well, we're an argumentative bunch. Discussion is good, but you're under no obligation to act on posted complaints. For the same reason, when I say "I wish we left legal issues to Cyan", that doesn't mean everyone must suddenly stop discussing them.

All in all, this is a good utility, Diafero. I will have some suggestions eventually, for example there were good ideas in GPNMilano's Nexus and Dustin's Drizzle distribution that could have been used in your system.

[diafero]

It is, but the meaning is not. For example, it is not clear in the comments that the file affects both the Nexus and the Relto bookshelf. Also, linking rules (regular or default) doesn't mean anything to me.
The file shows how to put several links per book, but those don't match what I have in my bookshelf for the Cyan books. Also it is not clear how multiple links are handled by the Nexus.

Ah, I see. ULMServerLinkBook lists the books which are to be shown in Relto. In addition, each age you want to be able to link to (including the ones you added only to Relto) has to be added to AvailableLinks, which is also the source for the two lists in Nexus. In doubt, just use the short form of defining an age, with only it's filename and the display name, so you don't have to explicitly set a linking rule.

There's also /float that you can use before /jump (brought great memories from the UU days), although those two commands are pretty useless when you have flymode ( by the way, there doesn't seem to be any kind of bounds checking on inputs, leading to potential problems. Can I /jump up to the surface? ).

Also you can /suitup and get the maintainer suit, without a helmet.

Thanks for the list, I really forgot about those and added them now
Yes, you can /jump as far as you want to, but /jump 1000 will panic link you while falling down. I see no reason for adding bounds there, just like there are no bounds in flymode.

Also you included in the package several things that have no relation to the KI. While I enjoy getting to see Shroomie up close every time I walk up to the shore, this is an unexpected side-effect that you should document. There are several new versions of some basic Python classes that seem to bear no relation to the userKI. I think you should either package them separately or at least document the changes.

The Offline KI is actually much more than a KI as it also changes the Relto Shelf and the Nexus. The modified Python files you mentioned are necessary for some of the changes. If you want to, I can send you a PM or add a 2nd technical page to explain what each file does, but I don't think the average user will be interested in that.
I added the Shroomie effect to the documentation.

All in all, this is a good utility, Diafero. I will have some suggestions eventually, for example there were good ideas in GPNMilano's Nexus and Dustin's Drizzle distribution that could have been used in your system.

I actually work with both of them, so that should not be much of a problem . Do you speak about adding the MOUL and Myst V Python files, or the shortcuts from Drizzle? The later are no longer necessary, everything can be done via a GUI or KI commands now. And the Nexus by GPNMilano is (AFAIK) just an idea so far, there is not yet much finished work I could distribute.


Regarding the ongoing copyright discussion - I'm not sure if asking Cyan would be the best way to go, because they might want to let us play currently, and when they are finally in a situation where they could do MORE, they can't just revoke permissions they once gave. greendragoon said quite well how I feel about it.


EDIT: Regarding the GZ coordinates in GreatZero, they work great for me. Does anyone else have this problem?

[Chacal]

Thanks Diafero, it is much clearer now.
I've reviewed the other changes and I agree they are all related to the multi-user KI.

By "bounds-checking", I was thinking more about sanitizing inputs so that no one can enter a value that could have unwanted impacts, such as a buffer overflow or any other way to crash the game. Not important now, but maybe if we get back to multi-user some day...

Yes I was thinking about the keyboard shortcuts, and more specifically about the way Dustin uses a text file for easy customization. But as you say, it is just as easy to add some commands.

As for GPNMilano's Nexus, I have been using it and it worked pretty well. I especially like the idea of having separate categories for MOUL and MystV Ages in the Nexus.

Right now after your patch my Nexus shows:
- City links working good
- Private links which is empty
- Public links which show the guild pubs
- Restoration links which show all Ages in the dat folder.

The only MOUL link is NewKveer in the City links. The others don't show up anywhere. Neither do the MystV links. Should they?

[diafero]

No, they should not. MOUL links are meant to be collected like it was in MOUL, and the Myst V ones can easily be accessed via Direbo which comes as a new book in the Relto. I use the Nexus only for ages where I can't find another way to integrate them, like the Guild Pubs and the fan ages.

By "bounds-checking", I was thinking more about sanitizing inputs so that no one can enter a value that could have unwanted impacts, such as a buffer overflow or any other way to crash the game. Not important now, but maybe if we get back to multi-user some day...

You mean by typing "/jump 999999999999999999"? I really have to try that, sounds fun

[GregW11]

Looks to me like there are still a few kinks to iron out. How about an outside window (similar to ULM, but applying to the Nexus instead of Relto) that lets you add/remove books from the Personal Ages tab? This would also be where you can register UCC with the KI so the Nexus still works... (I'm mainly thinking of the Ages that aren't on any of the servers to download, but you have to manually install)

edit: and I'd do this:
/gocam
/jump 999999999999999

(wow, it's starting to look like a bat file for command prompt)

[diafero]

How about an outside window (similar to ULM, but applying to the Nexus instead of Relto) that lets you add/remove books from the Personal Ages tab? This would also be where you can register UCC with the KI so the Nexus still works... (I'm mainly thinking of the Ages that aren't on any of the servers to download, but you have to manually install)

That would be another app doing the management... very much work, and much more than I ever planned to add. So if nobody else steps in, I doubt we'll see that in the near future.

/gocam
/jump 999999999999999

/gocam shouldn't do much, it's just to revert the effect of /stopcam so that your camera moves again. So I don't know what that is supposed to do...

(wow, it's starting to look like a bat file for command prompt)

Perhaps I should write a batch processor

[ddb174]

Fortunately, Python does bounds checking, so there's no need to worry about buffer overflows. It will just throw an exception.

As for a tool to download Ages: I think it should be simple and reliable. I.e. a tool that simply lists the ages (and versions), downloads the .zip from multiple alternate mirrors, extracts the Age, and perhaps launches Uru. More advanced functionality would be to cleanly remove an Age, although this isn't as important because the nexus easily handles every Age ever released. If people don't mind Java, I can easily add a tab to Drizzle(which people will need if they want to convert MystV anyway) to do this. Do we have a filehost that the .zips could be uploaded to?