Revenge of the Nonsense

[Jamey]

With you and Justin attacking others left and right, you expect us to listen to you? Yes, you don't use names when you attack us, how clever. We'll never figure out that your talking about us, Jamey.

Another point. Stop telling us how unprofessional we are. We are not professionals; we are hobbyists. No one, not even Cyan, should expect us to act professional, so find another buzz word to throw around.

Define "Us" and "We" for me, I am curious to see the list of people you are referring to, so I can put all this into proper perspective.

I'm not going to speak for Justin, but I'm not personally attacking anyone in this topic, so please do not presume I am. It's never been, nor will it ever be in my nature to insult or attack anyone. Period.

I must ask you though, how have I personally attacked anyone on this topic? Show me quotes of myself from this topic that you found to be personal attacks against one person. If I have, then I will be more than happy to address them, and clarify anything that is unclear.

I do hope that asking for a civil discussion without insults or attacks, is not too much to ask for.

[Paradox]

Perhaps you don't mean to be seen as "attacking" anyone, however, it is highly frustrating and annoying to many of us to be repeatedly told to "play nice with Cyan", when we've done that for years and accomplished nothing.

It comes across as someone who isn't aware of the full history assuming that things have always been the way they are now, and trying to paint all of our actions under a negative light without trying to understand what circumstances led to those actions.

I realise it's probably impossible for you to find out the whole story as forums have vanished and closed over the past 7 years, and I don't think that should be held against you.
But please don't hold against us how we act, after years of trying various methods of communication.

It's clear to us that Cyan has very little interest in communicating with us, outside of very specific situations.

I also second what BAD said, this is a game, this is not a career. There is not, and should never be, any expectation for people to act "professional".

To put in perspective, for each of our posts "against" Cyan that bother you, each of your posts "supporting" Cyan bothers us.

[Justintime9]

I understand the frustration, and I know there's quite a bit I wasn't around for. I don't claim to know the past, and I'm not sure if I'll ever understand it as it all played out. I understand many of you are bitter and justifiably so. However that bitterness does not have to turn into attack.

I have not heard people saying they "hate" cyan, but how else can this be interpreted? As far as I know people don't treat things they love like this. Of course you are not professionals, and I never said you were, I just think it's common decency to treat all people with respect - whether they deserve it or not. This does not just apply to cyan. I think this post does well to illustrate exactly what I'm talking about.

After reading Justin's posts I wonder if he ever finishes what he reads. Because what he wrote and what Tweek wrote got me to thinking, this must be what goes on in Justin's mind.

Because it hasn't. Do you honestly think that whenever we have something to say to Cyan we run at them screaming throwing kittens and babies and spitting blood, cursing as we *Yo Tweek, I'm real happy for you and imma let you finish. But Insults, personal attacks, Spitefulness, bitterness, and the overall negative attitude directed at cyan iz wrong.*

[Tomala]

just think it's common decency to treat all people with respect - whether they deserve it or not.

If you truly believe that I hear the KKK is looking for a new spokesperson. You know, someone to put a good face on the group.

[BAD]

Of course. On more than one occasion, I have disagreed with some things Cyan has said or done.
If I feel I may be ignorant about the issue, I ask a Cyan Employee, or someone else who has knowledge about the information on the matter before fully forming an opinion, rather than jump to a conclusion instantly.

Here you are insinuating that others besides yourself simply jump to conclusions and do not understand the situation. Further you tell us the right thing to do is ask a Cyan employee for answers on the subject rather than trusting our own comprehension.

Do you want more examples? Ever heard the story of the person who lived in the glass house?

It doesn't matter if you are direct or indirect, you are being just as insulting as any of us.

Justin,

Seriously? Go get yourself a girlfriend and then start telling us how people treat those they love. Not to mention that there are a few notches of human emotion between love and hate. Stop thinking in extremes.

Also what you are doing is assuming people's thoughts and motives. You can never have any idea how someone feels about a matter unless they explain it to you directly. Making assumptions and drawing conclusions from those assumptions is a very dangerous game.

I would suggest when you read someone's posts, you try to see them in the most positive light possible. Only when it is obvious someone has bad intentions, should you condemn them.


PS: Jamey, "we" and "us" are general terms meaning me and others like me. You know who else kept a list of names, McCarthy.

[Tweek]

Alrighty, well there has been a bunch of replies since I started writing this as I went out for dinner with the wife, so I have added a bunch of other quotes from the various posts and addressed them.

Because it hasn't. Do you honestly think that whenever we have something to say to Cyan we run at them screaming throwing kittens and babies and spitting blood, cursing as we do?

No we have contacted them in a civil a manner, and as usual it has yielded nothing. Some of us have been making suggestions for years on how to improve things, and they fall on deaf ears.

So I wash my hands of it, why bother trying to help Cyan when they ignore it, why bother trying to help the community when the majority come across a zealot sycophants, who'd rather knee jerk in reaction and offer up community cleansing as a solution instead of getting heads out of butts, stepping of egos and actually helping in a constructive way.

And you actually want me to be nice to these people? A witch gets burnt at the stake only so many times before they get bored and find something else to do.

Well, I do agree with you in the sense that some in the community do come across as extreme. (Some extreme who do anything to protect Cyan, some who really hate Cyan's guts. Both of these extremes are guilty in this respect)

But when you say;

...when the majority come across a zealot sycophants, who'd rather knee jerk in reaction and offer up community cleansing as a solution...

I don't think this is entirely true. For one thing, I have not heard any more than one person use the term "community cleansing" (and no, I'm not going to name people for the reason I stated earlier), and one person is not equivalent to the majority of the community. One person does not speak for everyone in the community, which is why I do not think it's fair that one extreme opinion causes the majority of the community to be subject to a straw-man.

Let me present the words of CrisGer;

I hope if they can find who did this, that they will be banned forever. I am very sad and disgusted to see such disrespect, but even worse, i am afraid for what damage such malicious people can do to other things in the Cavern. This is the danger to all of the selfish talk and aggressive attacks on Cyan, on the world of URU and the disisents we have had to listen to for months now on these forums and others pushing over and over for Open Source at any cost and people trying to grab control of parts of MOUL rather than just enjoy what we have. This sort of angry and selfish and immature action risks everything for all of us.

It is time to clean house and throw some people out for the good of all and set some rules of conduct and decency here and for the future.

Not everyone in the community is extreme on either side. Some prefer a balance. It's unfair to judge them and put them into a category with others who are extreme.

As for being nice to everyone, yes, I still stand by that. It's never a crime to be nice or respectful to others, regardless if you agree with people or not. You get what you give. Plus, I'd much rather be portrayed as someone who is too "nice and respectful", rather than someone who comes off as a jerk who insults others and is disrespectful.

But I'm not, I said a majority of the community, not "everyone" in the community, there is no generalization there. Yes but respect meets 2 criteria.

a. It goes both ways
b. it has to be earned.

If you're a member of this community, and I respect you, it's cause you've earned it, respect doesn't come for free. If people respect me, that's cause I've earned their respect, if they don't it's because I haven't.
As it turns out there are a fair few people I like speaking to who are not of the same view as me on things. But some don't deserve such niceties.

If I do disagree with someone, I try to offer constructive criticism. I like to offer other solutions whenever possible. Now, does this mean you can never say, "Oh, I don't agree with this!"? Not at all. There is a difference between insulting someone and giving constructive criticism.

For example, if someone were to say; "I want to give the new KI interface a button that links you to ages instantly without using books."

Instead of saying something like: "That's so stupid. It completely violates the laws of linking books. Come up with a better idea, and maybe we'll consider that".

Something like this would come across better in my opinion; "As creative as the idea is, I don't think I can fully support it. It doesn't make sense to have linking button on a KI since it makes linking books pointless. Perhaps as an alternative, we could have a button that shows the progress of your age, like if it is day or night in Gira, and things like that. It would act as a window rather than a door."

This is my view on all of this at least...

Agreed, and for the longest time I did that. Heck I even built my UruConcepts site to do so. Some people don't, and some times I'm a little harsher than needed, but after 12 years of this, I'm pretty much tired of it all.

...why bother trying to help the community when the majority come across a zealot sycophants, who'd rather knee jerk in reaction and offer up community cleansing as a solution...

I've seen this more than once and I wouldn't have expected it from you. I guess I would expect it from someone who is angry, so I guess you are angry. That's too bad (not being sarcastic). But to apply an extreme position generally to a community based upon the acts of one individual is extreme in itself. That's partly where Godwin's Law comes from.

I didn't apply it generally, I said the majority, if I had said "everyone is.." then I'd be generalizing.

But yes I am angry, I've been greatly disappointed since Uru Prologue closed in 04, and things haven't improved since, MOUL ran the canon into the ground and there isn't much that I care for left, Myst has had a big impact on my life and it's not something that is easily walked away from.

Then why even bother? If they won't listen, what's the point? What's to gain by sarcasm and negativity if it will not change anything?

Exactly, precisely why I washed my hands of it all.

Well many have pretty much painted CrisGer as the symbol of all that is evil.

Nah he pretty much succeeded in painting himself to be honest, I mean really when you read his stuff (I have a bunch of his quotes saved) he does it himself...

I don't hate Cyan, I just don't care anymore.

[Whilyam]

Ah, as usual. Justin and Jamey parrot the same nonsense they've heard, unprocessed from CrisGer's attitude. No thinking required, no desire for progress. Andy's critique is probably the most realistic one here. I don't agree with it, but it's at least something more than naivete and JWPlatt acting pompous and "disappointed" in the vile environment he generated. Let me take Andy's key point out and respond:

No company will allow it's fans or customers dictate policy to them. No company will allow it's fans or customers who gets hired or fired.

While not wholly true, in concept that's true. If you get bad/abusive treatment by a waiter, it is highly unlikely that the manager will walk out and fire the waiter on the spot. However, this assumes this is just a one-time affair. You would be hard pressed to find a serious not-morally-bankrupt company who would allow someone to persist in their position after repeated complaints. It's not smart business. veralun has had numerous complaints about his behavior. Cyan only looked at it because I put the topic out in public where it could not be ignored.

The rest of the topic is complete hogwash. This notion that, if we're just nice to them they'll do good things is dangerous if applied to society at large. Choose you political persuasion, imagine your ideology's opponents given total control under the assumption that, if left alone and not questioned, everything will be fine. If you're truly intellectual, imagine your own ideology with that control and recognize the horror of it. People have been nice to Cyan for years, they have asked nicely for years, they have been ignored for years. It is only when Cyan sees that their fans demand respect that they will give it (or not and fall apart). I have made a number of suggestions on how Cyan could build rapport with the people who will build this game AND get Uru launched faster (thus fewer expenses, happier community, much larger community).

[Jamey]

Alright, I give up trying to have a civilized conversation here in this topic with some of you people. Apparently, it's too much to ask for.

I'm done with this topic, and I'm done wasting my time.

[Paradox]

Alright, I give up trying to have a civilized conversation here in this topic with some of you people. Apparently, it's too much to ask for.

I'm done with this topic, and I'm done wasting my time.

Ironically, this is exactly how many of us feel about Cyan.

[Marten]

I also second what BAD said, this is a game, this is not a career. There is not, and should never be, any expectation for people to act "professional".

Indeed, it IS a game, and not a career. However, being a hobbyist doesn't excuse one to behave in whatever manner one wants. That rationale doesn't work. I understand the frustration expressed in "Oh, we've tried for years to work nicely with Cyan, it just doesn't work." But, pfft and too bad then; sometimes, you don't get what you want. Maybe you didn't try hard enough; maybe you tried too hard; or maybe it was futile all along, but none of those conditions justify just going off and doing whatever the heck you please.

The Guild of Writers has no more right of entitlement to the game than any other group. Every guild and organization associated with Uru has made contributions. Everyone is disappointed with the current state of Uru. Many of us understand that Cyan bears a significant share of the blame for this, that they are stubborn and they don't listen and they don't seem to learn from past mistakes. But most of us don't have a messiah complex and think that we can save Uru by attacking it.

Can you imagine if the Greeters started running around insulting players and trying to shoo them out of the game, in the name of creating drama, which draws attention, on the theory that this could only serve to increase attendance in the game?

What if the Messengers started spamming links to mystonline.com all over the internet, pumping e-mail boxes full of three times more Uru propaganda than pharmaceuticals, adult novelties, and penny stocks combined, all in the name of driving membership?

HERE is the real revenge of the nonsense.

Something must be done to keep interest. If it's bahro running around naked and it keeps interest up

Very good sir. And if someday you contract a rare blood disease, I should like to stab you in the heart while shouting, "I'm saving Tsar Hoikas!"* The logic is about the same.

Utter, unabashed, NONSENSE.

* FYI: This is not a threat, nor do I wish a rare blood disease upon anybody. For illustrative purposes only. Do not ingest. Void where prohibited.