What do you want from the developers moving forward?

[Paradox]

Might as well do a TL;DR. There is no point spending time developing CWE if it's not for the community, and the community centres around MOUL.

The open-source community is far bigger than MOUL.

I'm very interested to see what new directions people try to go with Plasma, the engine itself is highly flexible.

[Branan]

Which community? The fan-age-playing community has been centered around CC for years. MOUL is just one incarnation of Uru. It's not the first and it won't be the last.

With that being said, conversion is already part of the fan server process. And until Cyan gives us a content license, MOSS and DirtSand servers technically shouldn't distribute the MOULagain data files anyway. With that in mind, I don't consider conversion to be an undue burden on players or any more difficult than the current methods for playing on shards.

I'll also say that this will hopefully be an easier to use (and more automated) tool than Drizzle. I'd like people to consider convrsion from a technical standpoint only, not any workflow issues with it that Drizzle may have introduced over the years.

I feel it's the responsibility of the development team to create the best tools and technology for artists to create Ages in the D'ni universe. Not in CC, not in MOUL, but in D'ni. If the majority of GoW artists came forward and said "screw plasma, we want to use Unity", then a bunch of the development team would probably jump ship, but anyone that hangs around would hopefully still be there to help the artists.

[Aloys]

The bottom line (as often) is to find a fine balance between expanding what we have while avoiding fragmenting the community. That's difficult, and it'll be very easy to fall on the wrong side of the edge this time around. Various servers, various clients, maybe even various content.. Uru, and the way we experience it will certainly change a lot. (That'll feel just like the UU days for those who remember that.)
Having various file formats is no big deal by itself; but it's yet another thing that will add to the fragmentation, and IMO it should only be considered as a last option. And while tools would eventually be available to ease that, wouldn't it be better if we could avoid it altogether?

Anyway, I suppose it's my duty to stick up for Max. As it stands it's superior to Blender and PyPRP. It's the industry standard and it's the platform most used (alongside Maya) in the 3d art community. I might get flak for this - but limiting the community to using Blender is going to turn off exactly the sort of people who would make the best graphical content.

I agree with all that. But I think that, as a first step, it would both more interesting and easier to upgrade PyPRP than dwelve into Cyan's code. We already have experience with PyPRP; and there are project already in development; it'll be easier to work with. Beside; as Branan pointed out, it looks like nobody is currently interested in touching that plugin.

[Whilyam]

Blender needs to be where we first develop tools. This is because Blender is free. I don't want to pay for Max so I can make Ages and I shouldn't have to. After we have tools for Blender we can prioritize other modelers. That makes sense because we will need to cater to a diverse group of potential developers and having a broad set of programs compatible to our tools will entice more people to develop content for Uru. But that's for later.

On-topic: What I want from the developers moving forward (assuming this is code developers) is a fully-functional Blender plugin with tutorials on the wiki OR an interface intuitive enough to guide new developers through building an Age.

[kaelisebonrai]

What Whil said.

In addition:

Long term wishlist items for me are...

Shader support ala Myst V
- Custom Shaders in Materials
Bullet Physics.

[N. Sigismund]

I feel it's the responsibility of the development team to create the best tools and technology for artists to create Ages in the D'ni universe. Not in CC, not in MOUL, but in D'ni.

You're bang on there. That's what I want from the developers - a way for an inclusive game that includes fan ages and earlier MOULa content together, properly. We need to be making really good content. We need to be running servers with that content, server story lines and whatnot on. The engine is a tool for that, I guess...

I should not bother posting in these threads, I always get carried away. But yes. I think I at least made a good point about 3DS Max. It's a sticky subject, but trust me - if you build modern 3DS Max support, you will get developers interested from other places that would be turned off by a Blender-centric development procedure. That's not hating on Blender, but look at it in reverse. Loads of people use Blender here - imagine if you were interested in developing for some other fan game and you were told you had to use Max? Wouldn't that dampen your enthusiasm (and your ability to produce great work!)?

Now you need to find developers for that plugin, and I understand that. I'll keep looking and talking to coding friends - see if I can get some of them on board. Handy having a Comp Sci department full of avid gamers at Uni.

I seem to have prompted a few posts, because as I'm writing this I can't actually post it because each time I try there's something else to read and think about! I think I'll close on this - I'm concerned that it will take a very long time to get PyPRP up to the standards that the Max plugin sets. That's a direct challenge to the PyPRP developers - I stand by Max because as it stands it's significantly better than PyPRP in ease of use and features. Whil, I totally agree with your wishes from the Blender plugin. Do that and I will have less of an issue.

Aloys made a really good point about how fragmentation is a bad thing - so I'm going to suggest something. We need a central fan server which represents the unifying point between new content and new development. Let the GoW or OU run it. Run it as seriously as possible. Organise a formal content team that makes new ages. Pretend we're a serious games company and Uru is our (adopted) baby rather than something we're babysitting whilst Cyan is away at the theatre. We have formal code teams - why not formal content teams? What makes attempts to form them fail, why do a few - the DRA team - succeed? How can we facilitate a proper team?

[JWPlatt]

It's not bad to fork and create new innovations. A new render engine based upon Cyan's work is part of what open source is about. We do not have to choose one thing or the other; many can exist. Folks can continue to work with a new engine, and they still can continue to work in the path that leads to MOULa and Cyan support. That would include the 3ds Max plugin which can be developed while everyone also works on Blender. It's the power of choice. An unlicensed conversion is a choice you'll make, but it cannot be legally supported. CWE is about the path to MOULa. Anything else is really a different product. With a different product are you ready to take on the role of obtaining licensing and then supporting an entire D'ni infrastructure?

[Whilyam]

My dream for Uru is to have a list of Ages and/or Age packs (groups of Ages interconnected by story, for example) that people choose the Ages they want to explore rather than forcing them to get all the same Ages. So I would download, for example, just Fahehts and Toroolbah and play around in them. Aside from Relto or a similar starting Age (and probably all of Cyan's Ages), that's all I would have on my computer. I'm thinking sort of how Left 4 Dead handles add-on campaigns: you stick a single .zip in the directory and the campaign is all self-contained and optional.

[N. Sigismund]

With a different product are you ready to take on the role of obtaining licensing and then supporting an entire D'ni infrastructure?

Well it's less about the license and more about the infrastructure, really. If Cyan really got a case of the sads when modders broke the licenses, we wouldn't have all this code and Uru would have died in 2008. But revelling in the fact that we're breaking the licenses is not the right approach.

For the record, I'm not 100% behind the idea of "If we develop, Cyan will use." I think that's not a bad idea, but if we develop properly then any developer, not just Cyan, could use the stuff. If you keep an eye out and think "how could Cyan adapt this?" then yeah, that's fine. But really it should be about making Uru more fun, more viable. If we make mechanisms to port over old content to new, then Cyan can use that if they want. But accounting for both sides wishes is most important. When Cyan gets pots of money and interest from Myst: The Book of Atrus and suddenly can do stuff again, then that kind of stuff becomes more important. But until then we lay the groundwork for a better game, a game that maybe Cyan can use and do the magical mystical stuff to later. I develop Llantern like that. Cyan could take Llantern tomorrow and then (after totally redoing it, because I suck) adapt it into MOULa without any problems. I know what Cyan want from custom content - they've SAID what they want, thanks to those really old guidelines - and so I can work within those. But I still keep my eye on the ball and think "even if Cyan don't ever use Llantern, how can I make it work on shards and singleplayer?"

@Whilyam - I actually have a pretty different idea. You want singleplayer - I'm very much a multiplayer man. I want an active, deep and evolving storyline, backed up with content.

[J'Kla]

In the past I've used Max (not mutch) and I have access to v7 and v8 but none of the newer editions. There is no way I can afford to buy my own copy of these let alone the newer stuff or Maya.

I have the opertunity to play around by loading the learning copy and hacking my ported ages into something that will work with the plugins.

Having spent what feels like ages using Blender 2.49b going back to Max has been weird.

The look of Blender 2.56a looks strange (just personal and subjective) but whatever I have to use I will use. If this means I have to get used to Blender 2.56.... and for modeling the geometry and then Max for texturing and animation whatever then I will.

I would like to do everything in Linux and I love the sound of viewing an age without having to re-launch but I've kinda got used to that.

I've got a background project for another game that would use all of the underlying game engineering that is inherent in uru. That is avatar movement first and third person, discrete built areas (ages), instantaneous trasportation between those areas (linking) but teleporting of sorts, the search for story elements pre-defined objects (journey cloths) in the envionment that release elements of backstory (Yeesha ramblings) to build towards an ongoing goal.

All of the above with a device that behaves like the KI but none of it D'ni. No linking books. No cavern back story. But I would still like to play and build within a D'ni universe in the same way we have Explorers in D'ni who have another existence in World of Warcraft while still enjoying an alternative existence in 2nd Life.

So in direct answer to the stated question at the top of the thread.

I want an environment that maximizes my ability to use all of the resources at hand to build ages/worlds for myself and others to enjoy. Now unless I win a bundle on the lottery that means using Blender and an UruBlender sounds like it could only make things easier.

If it helps me build my new game/project then great if it doesn't then what the hell I'll keep waiting for a lottery win (I don't play so it could be some time).

Producing things like opening doors and appliying conditional logic (example If the avatar does this and this is female and has an egg and is wearing green trousers then they can open the door and go through otherwise the door remains closed). At the moment this would elude me and the level of coding either in Alcscript or pure Python is as far away from me as my chances of knitting a jumper from fog.

So tools to this end would help like the ability to create a simple variable and onto that build "if then else" or "repeat until" type statements.

I seem to remember back in the old days of text adventures (yes I am old enough to remember playing the Hobbit on Sinclair Spectrum) that everywhere was a discrete location and progress to the next location required a vector and conditions to allow the door that was stopping you to open.

Now the door could be darkness and the key to that door could be the proverbial source of light.

The door could be a real door and the key could be a real key.

The goal a release of information like:

Because you have a source of light you see the book on the floor.

Or

Because you have the key to the door you open it and enter the room

and

Then you see the book on the floor. And when you open the book and read it wow a universe of possibilities or possibly a cheesy pun based joke about whatever????

So I would like:

A way of building worlds/ages preferably Blender if I have to re-learn 3dMax to a higher standard and sell my soul to get a copy then so be it.

A simple way of establishing in game variables that are manipulated by avatar action tied with.

A simple way of entering conditional logic based on Avatar possessions/clothing interaction with game objects and the state of above variables.

What I am not bothered about are:

Flaws in Cyans ages (they are theirs let them sort them out)

The old KI not playing (as long as I can have my own version of one that does) (By that I mean get your KI from Ghareseen and it stays crap go to some new location and the blind watchmaker will upgrade your KI to do lots of new crap like Show all of the people you share an age with (not just those that will fit on the screen) An Age list that stays closed (Twistied) so you can see your buddies. A way of scrolling to earlier conversation that doesent jump to the next new entry before you write down that vital URL.

I think you get the drift.