Guild of Writers

I highly suggest that we make our web/data-sending interface from scratch... and make the whole thing from scratch--or as much from scratch is as reasonable, I think we should use pyogre as the rendering engine so that we can program this thing in python rather than C. Just think of how nice it would be if we didn't have to cater to some other project's wishes and copywrites--we really could have code revisions made by the people and approved by the Maintainers and Writers. We would not be tempted to use a SL interface because it would be easy to do that, this project should be dedicated to Myst from day one. I think that it may be harder to do but... simple is better than badly-skinned . If you think about phpBB, it's a great thing but, if it's un-skinned it is not YOURS it's just a piece of software that you installed on your server--simple is better than complicated and not yours.


This should be us the fans world rather than a hacked attempt at something Myst-like, this is our chance to not be hackers. If we get approval from cyan for using things like link-books this could be completely legal.

I think that making a telnet client with python capable of transferring avatar positions and chat is easy(I've been trying stuff out). The form that I've come up with for transferring data is simple and streamlined:

<avatarID>:<action>

we can fill in some data here:

346:CH"Hello!"

CH stands for chat.

or for an emote(EM) and then the emote ID

346:EM"001"

And then we have the location example:
this is the location defining short-hand variable being set(this would happen every time someone links into the age. This num is a constant number that never changes as long as you stay in that age(not sure how best to make it though. ))

Define:

346:(1)

Report location:

1:(10.1,90.01,-8.4)

This tells the server that your avatar is at

X:10.1
Y:90.01
Z.-8.4

And if there is lots of people in an age this number gets rounded so it's less data being sent:

01:(10,90,-8)

As you can see; no leading or trailing zeros(I use punctuation-marks instead of leading zeros to show where the ID starts and the data begins). I think that they just eat up bandwidth--and for what? If there's no data there no data that should have to be sent.

I hope I've convinced you all that we should at all costs make our own data transfer system and should not use prefab stuff.


~Lontahv

Nice technical discussion in the storyline section Lontahv
To keep two sentences technical:
I don't want to program the bloody thing in python! Python is fine for game-logic scripting, but I want the core engines in some direct-compilable language for performance and compatibility reasons.

For the rest, this discussion should focus more on the storyline sort of things. I'll start some thing in the programmers section if more technobabble is needed
It seems that on the storyline, most agree that in the core, we need some way of telling that the ages are inaccessable to us somehow. The Ki appearently too, which I won't be sad about

A previous poster suggested that we don't allow inter-age communications at first, but wait until we establish the appropriat relays at first. I like it.
It kind of feels like something is being built up. Also, the notion of "setting" instead of "story" is a good one.

So it seems that there are two things to discuss here:
- Core setting
- Buildup storyline - (or perhaps "event-pattern")

For technical considerations, I suggest we assume a centralized system, in which over-time, certain groups can build their own niches, by setting up a "linked shard".

I'd suggest that it be explicit that the core setting is more a default than a canon. I think that both technically and creatively, people need to be able to go off on their own without fear of being dogpiled on for doing so. So if someone decides to run their own continuity, then more power to 'em. Also, there should be a lot of room in the setting for variation.

There are some meta considerations before we get to core setting and the transition from D'ni to D'nay:
* communications - People need to be able to communicate, privately, locally and in 'channels'. That's a reality in the MMO genre. You can either handwave the non-local stuff ('there are no PMs in the IC world') or you include an IC mechanism. Something like a KI is the ideal for this - especially if you take the 'swiss army KI' approach to the concept. Whether you lead up to interage communication or not is a different issue - the thematic infrastructure (and corresponding game code) should be there from day 1. Include mass communciation (broadcasting, bulletin boards, email, etc) in this concept. Also, consider non-game methods of communication (maybe you can send email from the game to Internet email accounts - maybe these relays connect up to a server in our Age that acts as a gateway to D'nay.net?)

* instancing - everyone seems to hate instancing, but it's a very powerful concept. It just needs to be handled in a more consistent way, designed up front in the setting. Call sets of instances "branches" and the instances themselves "leaves" . There is a default 'public' branch which has one of everything that everyone can get to if they have the right books. But instead of a haphazard cross linking of instances, make it so that you have to do something conscious to switch branches. A special machine or linking book takes you to the root of a different branch, in which you have access to your own instance of Ages. Maybe Writers can designate an age to be un-instanceable if they want.

* panic linking - I find the panic linking an extremely valuable mechanic. it allows you to try all sorts of stuff without worry of dying, both in a game sense and in an IC sense. I'd strongly suggest a similar mechanic. Me, I like Relto books. I think they are a cool concept, but others might not. The standard rules of linking don't really allow for it, however.

One option would be, instead of a book, you have a one-use 'linking paper' or such. You panic link and the paper is left behind (and vaporizes). When you link back to whereever that leads to, there is a machine there that creates these panic links. Your avvie automatically grabs a new one. In theory, you could have multiple of these machines and have them as sort of 'save points'. You carry a linking paper with you until you click on a new machine. It gives you a new one and then you link back to THAT point when you panic link. Alternatives to a linking paper could be a one-shot bracelet or even a linking symbol painted on the back of your hand (a la Esher's linking symbol from the Bahro). And this brings me too...

* rules of linking - The rules of linking need to be established. The default rules are you need descriptive books, and that linking books refer to them. When you write a linking book, it links to where you wrote it. When you link through, the linking book is left behiond, Etc. Some of these rules have been broken in Uru with bahro stones, Relto books and linking portals. So I think that we could modify them a bit to reflect the new Writer's skills and dispositions. Does it always have to be a book? Do the books have to be made in the D'ni way (note that in Riven, Gehn 'powered' his books, and Catherine used a funcky screen to sidestep the need for power, whatever it powered)? Can there be linking screens on imagers, for instance? Linking tattoos? Does it have to be in D'ni? Or can it be in other languages? Specialized formuae instead? Does it have to be something written? Can a machine or artifact link you? Etc. Can you not link to the same Age in all cases? That could mess up panic linking unless the destination of it was somewhere where no panic links ever took place (a building like Nexus, for instance).

Ok, can the internet data transfer system be written in python?

Please.

If it is then I can work on programming the data transfer part of the program right now.


Um, just don't expect me to program in C#--I'll leave the game engine part of D'nay to you Trylon.

I think that we should have something instead of relto books--I like relto books a lot but they do cause problems.
What about if this city is safe. And then if you write a dangerous age you can go in a safety suit and hard-hat.

~Lontahv

[quote=BladeLakem]I'd suggest that it be explicit that the core setting is more a default than a canon. I think that both technically and creatively, people need to be able to go off on their own without fear of being dogpiled on for doing so. So if someone decides to run their own continuity, then more power to 'em. Also, there should be a lot of room in the setting for variation.[/quote]I agree with this 100%, and couldn't have said it better. I'd much rather that there be many "shards" each with their own continuity, and that those who want to explore an Uru-like setting with whatever rules they desire can do so.

People need to be able to communicate, privately, locally and in 'channels'. That's a reality in the MMO genre. You can either handwave the non-local stuff ('there are no PMs in the IC world') or you include an IC mechanism. Something like a KI is the ideal for this - especially if you take the 'swiss army KI' approach to the concept. Whether you lead up to interage communication or not is a different issue - the thematic infrastructure (and corresponding game code) should be there from day 1. Include mass communciation (broadcasting, bulletin boards, email, etc) in this concept. Also, consider non-game methods of communication (maybe you can send email from the game to Internet email accounts - maybe these relays connect up to a server in our Age that acts as a gateway to D'nay.net?)

Yes, yes, yes. The infrastructure should be robust enough to allow whatever sorts of communication systems we can think of, but we should leave the actual implementation of that system (e.g. is inter-age communication accessible from day 1?) up to the tastes of the different shard owners. My preference would be to have inter-age communication working from the start, but with plausible methods that work with the sorts of linking rules we know and love.

Everyone seems to hate instancing, but it's a very powerful concept. It just needs to be handled in a more consistent way, designed up front in the setting. Call sets of instances "branches" and the instances themselves "leaves" . There is a default 'public' branch which has one of everything that everyone can get to if they have the right books. But instead of a haphazard cross linking of instances, make it so that you have to do something conscious to switch branches. A special machine or linking book takes you to the root of a different branch, in which you have access to your own instance of Ages. Maybe Writers can designate an age to be un-instanceable if they want.

So a "branch" would be like all Ages of the form "Owehn's *"? That makes sense (and would make Gira/Kemo much more manageable. What I imagine is a system where any individual or group can be provided with an Age instance by the Age's author. (The author could have options of automatically giving everyone access to an Age instance, or reserving the right to distribute instances to individuals or groups on a case-by-case basis, or instances could conceivably be automatically generated by in-game actions. Which options are available would, again, depend on the shard.)

I find the panic linking an extremely valuable mechanic. it allows you to try all sorts of stuff without worry of dying, both in a game sense and in an IC sense. I'd strongly suggest a similar mechanic. Me, I like Relto books. I think they are a cool concept, but others might not. The standard rules of linking don't really allow for it, however. One option would be, instead of a book, you have a one-use 'linking paper' or such. You panic link and the paper is left behind (and vaporizes). When you link back to whereever that leads to, there is a machine there that creates these panic links. Your avvie automatically grabs a new one. In theory, you could have multiple of these machines and have them as sort of 'save points'. You carry a linking paper with you until you click on a new machine. It gives you a new one and then you link back to THAT point when you panic link. Alternatives to a linking paper could be a one-shot bracelet or even a linking symbol painted on the back of your hand (a la Esher's linking symbol from the Bahro).

Yeah, I hope the game mechanics allow for different shards to explore different ways of achieving their own panic-link-like mechanism. I favor the one-shot linking paper, personally. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to claim that we have special, thin linking books with no covers and made of a quickly-degrading material that is carefully preserved until the moment of linking. And that these are mass-produced and distributed.

The rules of linking need to be established. The default rules are you need descriptive books, and that linking books refer to them. When you write a linking book, it links to where you wrote it. When you link through, the linking book is left behind, Etc. Some of these rules have been broken in Uru with bahro stones, Relto books and linking portals. So I think that we could modify them a bit to reflect the new Writer's skills and dispositions. Does it always have to be a book? Do the books have to be made in the D'ni way (note that in Riven, Gehn 'powered' his books, and Catherine used a funcky screen to sidestep the need for power, whatever it powered)? Can there be linking screens on imagers, for instance? Linking tattoos? Does it have to be in D'ni? Or can it be in other languages? Specialized formuae instead? Does it have to be something written? Can a machine or artifact link you? Etc. Can you not link to the same Age in all cases? That could mess up panic linking unless the destination of it was somewhere where no panic links ever took place (a building like Nexus, for instance).

I'd prefer that this left up to the individual shards. If there's a shard that wants to stick to the ultra-conservative d'ni linking rules, they'd be able to enforce that in the Ages they allow (this should be something the Maintainers look for), while if there's a shard that wants a more lax view of linking rules with portals and stuff, they could do that, and if a shard wants to forgo standard linking rules altogether, they could do so.

You can probably tell that I'm in favor of there being independent shards. I think this is actually essential to the success of the contingency plan, since the only way I can imagine Cyan Legal allowing an Uru-like game to form independently of Cyan is if the game isn't inherently set in the d'niverse, but a bunch of its players have all agreed to abide by d'ni linking rules etc.

Hi, I'm ametist from the GoMa, and I'm here because Trylon kindly invited us to take part in this discussion.
I have read this thread and have some thoughts about the storyline I want to share. Please bare with me

I've been playing the Mystseries since they came and I surfed the forums back then, don't think I ever participated though. I was even so insecure and shy that I didn't join the D'mala Shard though I got an invitation to do so, because I din't know what that was! Or what was expecting from me to be a part of it. Hadn't the guts to ask on forum an had no one to ask. Not until URULive came along and I learned how extraordinary kind and helpful this community is, I now have become real brave I joined GoMa, I've learning to test ages for bugs and now I even post here!

I have been in the cavern a full year now and much appreciate that special athmosphere, all the people who makes me happy and greet me whenever I link in to my relto. That is what I want to keep having access to. A place where we can gather to chat, have parties, listening to lectures (like Dagdas reading, Thends 'puzzlerisms', ResEngs orientations, competitions and so on. And of course explore ages!

For me ( and I don't think I'm unique in this) it would be very essential that the story give me a plausibel reason for the closing of the cavern and the opportunity to 'follow' the guilds to another age. That age or place must also make me feel comfortabel, by that I mean I have to recognize something from uru - I am a urufugee. The way I link, the way I communicate or interact with others or so. Otherwise I maybe go back home to grieve the loss of URU and never come back. Later on, being familiar with new ways of doing things in these new ages, would make me more willing to drift away from the 'uruite' way of behaving, communicating and exploring. Always, I think, with the hope of a re-opening of the cavern.

So, IMHO, the story would allow the cavern to open again and therefore maybe the bahro-story would be suitable. The bad bahros (we all remember Negilahn) are swarming in to the cavern and all the ages and make it lethal to be there. The linkingbooks must be destroyed so they can't follow us - I think that piece about everyone link to Gira and when last person linked to the new 'city' or public age, the book is dropped down the lavapit. And when time comes and the bahros are gone, poisioned by the awakened algaes of the lake? We can go back via the Cleft again.

This new 'city ' could be a place on earth, like a village talked about earlier in this thread, or a comfy little book shop, situated in, say Marrakesh, where nobody would lift an eybrow if tourists disappear behind the curtains to the inner room in that book shop.

That's my two cents (as you say in america

Thank's for listening!

ametist

I have to say I'm with Ametist on this one.

And sorry Lontahv, but if the core won't be written in python, then it would make no sense to make the data transfer part in python. But rest assured, if you master python at the speed I've seen you do, then I'm sure you'd master C++ (or C#) relatively quick as well

If we're carrying on from where the game storyline left off, it would be nice if we could do something in the way of retcon with the stupid war, to give it some kind of credibility and value. But I'm probably the only person who would care about that. I think the idea about surface governments closing in is persuasive. We couldn't hope to stay secret indefinitely, especially with the DRC trucking around the surface asking influential people for money, and so some kind of exodus was inevitable (hmm...I wondered why they called the last episode that when only a few people were leaving...). The clearout would have to be very thorough, though. Any and all linking and/or descriptive books that may have been found in the Cavern would have to come with us, no question, and we would just have to hope that any others were too securely hidden for the US Army to find. And, of course, they'd almost certainly blow the place up when they left, so there would be no going back except possibly to an instance.

A bigger disjunct that is probably just going to have to be ignored is going from a Cavern in which even the DRC, with a monopoly on information, couldn't Write Ages, straight to a new and stable Age actually Written by a non-DRC explorer. I'll take my hat off to anyone who can come up with a plausible and consistent explanation for that.

But these are backward-looking things, and most people are concentrating on the future, which is quite right and proper. I just like to know that things behind me are tidy before I move forward.

Zander wrote:A bigger disjunct that is probably just going to have to be ignored is going from a Cavern in which even the DRC, with a monopoly on information, couldn't Write Ages, straight to a new and stable Age actually Written by a non-DRC explorer. I'll take my hat off to anyone who can come up with a plausible and consistent explanation for that.

Dr. Watson has been to Releeshan. He brought back training materials that have the benefit of D'ni expertise AND the combined genius of Atrus and Yeesha.

How're the telnet transfer and port opening modules in C++ or C#?


~Lontahv (already come-to-terms with programming 1500 lines of non-python)